Split Personality?

[Sauron the White]

Okay -- here is what I think you are attempting to do. Over the past couple of weeks, I have said repeatedly that I see a double standard in use by some members of this board, a type of hypocrisy if you will. They have a deep love for the writings of JRRT. As is necessary in this type of fiction, they employ willing suspension of disbelief to get past various flaws, holes, internal conflicts or other things that may get in the way of enjoying the stories. That is fine and we all do it. I mentioned that when it comes to the films, the same people who can go through all manner of intellectual gymnastics to explain away any problem, cannot or will not extend that same spirit to Jackson. Instead, they relish and rather enjoy attempting to poke holes throught the Jackson movies. I use the examples in both the Denethors Plunge and the whole "Gimli running 140 miles" debate.

I asked for fairness -- please use that same willing suspension of disbelief in discussing the movies.

But now you introduce something different. This entire line of SECONDARY BELIEF that Tolkien talks about. To be frank, I think you are taking willing suspension of disbelief, dressing it up in a more expensive gown, attempting to put some lipstick and make-up on it and declaring it something unique and special that covers only the writings of Tolkien. I think you are doing this to have another trump card ready. I really do not buy it.

Regarding JRRT's character in the film rights. All I have done is to use the historical record as laid out by JRRT in his Letters and the comments from his official biographer. It is clear to me that, at various stages of chronology, JRRT
a) did not want a film made of LOTR and felt it could not be made
b) was interested in the idea of a film but wanted to be involved and his suggestions implemented to get the type of film he wanted to be made
c) was faced with the choice of "art or cash"
d) decided in favor of cash knowing full well what went with that

That much has been established both in the Letters and through historical developments.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Regarding JRRT's character in the film rights. All I have done is to use the historical record as laid out by JRRT in his Letters and the comments from his official biographer. It is clear to me that, at various stages of chronology, JRRT
a) did not want a film made of LOTR and felt it could not be made
b) was interested in the idea of a film but wanted to be involved and his suggestions implemented to get the type of film he wanted to be made
c) was faced with the choice of "art or cash"
d) decided in favor of cash knowing full well what went with that

That much has been established both in the Letters and through historical developments.

And I don't think anyone is disputing those facts, exactly. The disputation I'm seeing has more to do with the interpretation of what those facts mean.

On that note, I'm woefully unclear: what exactly ARE you interpreting those facts to mean?

[Sauron the White]

JRRT was a responsible adult who willingly entered into a binding legal contract to sell LOTR to a third party for the purposes of dramatic or film rights. He willingly did so knowing full well what this process entailed and involved. He could have
a- not sold the rights at all, or
b - negotiated a sale for possibly less money but retaining some type of artistic control over the result.
But he did neither of these.

At the same time, JRRT believed that the book would not lend itself to a film or stage presentation. He believed that such a transition to another medium would not be successful.

I think rather than me tell you what these facts may mean, I ask others here what they mean to you?

Why would you sell someone somthing when you were on record as believing that the purchasing party would not be able to realize the value in their part of the bargain?

[obloquy]

Why not? It's good money, and what difference, ultimately, does it make? Knockoffs were inevitable, anyway. Besides, if Tolkien had maintained a closer relationship with those who wanted to adapt his story (i.e. greater creative influence), he would have had to share the blame for the results.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

But now you introduce something different. This entire line of SECONDARY BELIEF that Tolkien talks about. To be frank, I think you are taking willing suspension of disbelief, dressing it up in a more expensive gown, attempting to put some lipstick and make-up on it and declaring it something unique and special that covers only the writings of Tolkien. I think you are doing this to have another trump card ready. I really do not buy it.

If this is what you think, then you misunderstand. I'm not ingenious enough to trot out something new and different as some special trump card. Secondary Belief has been discussed by me and others over the years quite often in other threads, notably in Books discussions.

I have experienced Secondary Belief in my reading of the works of J.K. Rowling, Orson Scott Card, C.S. Lewis, and other authors. I have experienced Secondary Belief watching the first three Star Wars movies, the Harry Potter movies, and most of the Indiana Jones movies.

But the Indiana Jones movies offer an example of the spell being broken. In the 2nd movie, Indiana and another character are in a mine car rolling down the track at breakneck speed, careening nearly out of control. Suddenly the track stops at a gorge, and the cart is careering wildly in mid-air - - and lands perfectly on the tracks again on the other side of the gorge. I grinned and said, "Uh uh! No way!" And suddenly I experienced myself looking at the movie screen, in which the action was occurring, rather than being inside the movie with the hero. The spell had been broken. I was able to get back into the movie and experience secondary belief again, but it took an effort of willingly suspending my disbelief.

I have also experienced secondary belief watching the LotR movies. But the spell is often broken by something that just doesn't work for me. Now this is important: if I had never read the books, these problems would not have occured. I understand that. The reason the problems occur is because the books kept me at Secondary Belief the entire way through. I believed it, writ whole. I had been in Middle Earth while I read the books. So every instance ~ yes, every instance ~ at which the movies alter from the book, the spell is broken.

At such points I am faced with the task of evaluating whether the instance must be overlooked as something necessary to make the movie work. I try to overlook these instances, for this 'moviemaking' reason, as often as possible; but sometimes it just simply cannot be done because the instance violates something deeply written into the book, and it violates my Secondary Belief. Such as the consistently noble character of Aragorn. Such as the character of Faramir. Such as the evil of Gollum. Such as the heroic suffering ~ not gollumization ~ of Frodo. Such as the unswerving loyalty ~ not rivalry with Gollum ~ of Samwise. Such as the unity of purpose between Gandalf, Theoden, Aragorn, and Legolas as opposed to the needless bickering that occurs in the movie.

But I'll end this post on a positive note. Secondary belief occurs in the movie, for me, when Eowyn and Merry overcome the Witch King. When the Rohirrim ride into battle at the Pelennor Fields. When Gandalf and the Balrog fall and fall into the deeps of the mountain. On Weathertop. Viewing Hobbiton. Watching the Seven Beacons in the White Mountains lit one by one. This is some gorgeous stuff, and I loved the realization on the cinema screen of something that had been inscribed upon my imagination by a great story from the books. I just wish more of the movie could have been that way.

[davem]

I suppose that the things that broke my 'Secondary belief' in the movie had more to do with the illogicalities than anything else - I could list Boromir being hurled a good twenty feet across the Chamber of Mazarbul into a stone wall & just being mildly stunned, Frodo falling from the Seat of Seeing on Amon Hen the equivalent (given his size) of about thirty feet for a man onto his back & just getting up & shaking his head, the Rohirrim charging down a 45 degree scree slope into pike (or the same suicidal manouvre carried out on the Pelennor Fields - Tolkien was well enough informed to know that cavalry never, ever, charge pike & so has the Rohirrim smash into the enemy flank without warning). I won't even go into Denethor's 3 mile run from the Hallows to the precipice while aflame (or the silliness of having no wall there - the Gondorian Health & Safety executive would have had apoplexy!) I could go on....

I think that that kind of thing, far more than the character changes, was what really made it impossible for me to accept the movies.

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by davem

I suppose that the things that broke my 'Secondary belief' in the movie had more to do with the illogicalities than anything else - I could list Boromir being hurled a good twenty feet across the Chamber of Mazarbul into a stone wall & just being mildly stunned, Frodo falling from the Seat of Seeing on Amon Hen the equivalent (given his size) of about thirty feet for a man onto his back & just getting up & shaking his head, the Rohirrim charging down a 45 degree scree slope into pike (or the same suicidal manouvre carried out on the Pelennor Fields - Tolkien was well enough informed to know that cavalry never, ever, charge pike & so has the Rohirrim smash into the enemy flank without warning). I won't even go into Denethor's 3 mile run from the Hallows to the precipice while aflame (or the silliness of having no wall there - the Gondorian Health & Safety executive would have had apoplexy!) I could go on....

I think that that kind of thing, far more than the character changes, was what really made it impossible for me to accept the movies.

So? Tolkien does ridiculous things too. What do you make of Hurin, all alone and completely surrounded, killing *seventy* trolls?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

So? Tolkien does ridiculous things too. What do you make of Hurin, all alone and completely surrounded, killing *seventy* trolls?

No. That's typical of ancient heroes - Arthur is credited with killing five hundred men in one battle. Besides I don't think its logically impossible that Hurin killed 70 trolls. And logical impossibility is what we're talking here. Its also subjective. The capture of Hurin I, personally, found incredibly moving. The incidents I cited in the movies I found silly. If you didn't that's fine.

[Sir Kohran]

Originally Posted by davem

Besides I don't think its logically impossible that Hurin killed 70 trolls.

I cannot see how it is logically possible for a single man, who had been fighting all day and was armed with a borrowed orc axe and was completely alone and surrounded by opposing forces, to kill seventy enemies (and apparently more additional orcs). Heck, that's almost as many as Legolas and Gimli together killed during the entire battle at the Hornburg.

And there are other cases, too - six thousand Rohirrim, six or seven thousand men of Gondor and several thousand more reinforcements with Aragorn somehow manage to defeat a force of eighteen thousand Haradrim, countless thousands of orcs and trolls, and many other evil men. The victory at the Pelennor seems a miracle to say the least.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I cannot see how it is logically possible for a single man, who had been fighting all day and was armed with a borrowed orc axe and was completely alone and surrounded by opposing forces, to kill seventy enemies (and apparently more additional orcs). Heck, that's almost as many as Legolas and Gimli together killed during the entire battle at the Hornburg.

Hurin was the greatest (human) hero of the First Age - which surely makes it entirely possible that he could kill 70 trolls - in fact, the killing of 70 trolls would be exactly the kind of thing that would beget, & confirm, such a reputation. Anyway, He killed 70 trolls because Tolkien says he did. Or do you have evidence to the contrary?

And there are other cases, too - six thousand Rohirrim, six or seven thousand men of Gondor and several thousand more reinforcements with Aragorn somehow manage to defeat a force of eighteen thousand Haradrim, countless thousands of orcs and trolls, and many other evil men. The victory at the Pelennor seems a miracle to say the least.

Many ancient battles were lost by superior forces to numerically inferior ones. And I think you're forgetting the morale destroying effect of the killing of Angmar. The point is the forces of Mordor went in expecting a walkover & found themselves being hit from all sides by forces they were not expecting. Add to that the death of the Witch King & consequent loss of a controlling hand, & its entirely likely that they would start to panic, become confused & go to pieces. At that point it would have become a walkover for an organised force under the command of experienced leaders like Aragorn, Eomer & Imrahil.