New Tolkien Books:updates

[davem]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

My Houghton Mifflin 70th Anniversary Hobbit arrived today. Davem -- I assume you purchased the Harper Collins edition? Mine sounds similar to yours. After all these recent "glitzy" collector's edition, this one is more like a little grey mouse. Very comfortable to read. I rather like it, especially the muted tones of the cover that remind me a little of the Harper Collins History of the Hobbit. Does yours have the first chapter of LotR tucked into the back and the short foreward by Christopher dated 1987?

I think that, as with CoH, both HM & HC have gone for the same design & contents. Of course, including the Long Expected Party chapter in there opens up the whole can of worms about whether TH is part of the Legendarium proper.....

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I think that, as with CoH, both HM & HC have gone for the same design & contents. Of course, including the Long Expected Party chapter in there opens up the whole can of worms about whether TH is part of the Legendarium proper.....

No, it doesn't because

1. The Silm as a satisfactorily completed book was just a gleam in JRRT's and CT's eyes when TH and LotR were published, so the original inclusion of LEP had nothing to do with any kind of statement about the Legendarium.

2. Inclusion of LEP was related to the fact that Tolkien started LotR as a sequel to TH. Even if LotR grew beyond that intention, the original intention is not negated.

3. Inclusion of such chapters as LEP was a publishing strategy related to marketing. It was designed to inspire readers to buy more books (and maybe even pad a smallish book to make it seem more substantial). It was not designed to make a statement about any kind of authorial universe, about which readers at the time knew nothing.

4. Removing LEP from an edition of TH which is not represented as an exact reprinting of the original first edition and which includes several other items would represent a revision to the history of publication of TH. It happened. Discussing it of course is legitimate--many people do enjoy the wriggling aspect of argument--but to erase it is the worst sort of historical revisionism.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

No, it doesn't because

1. The Silm as a satisfactorily completed book was just a gleam in JRRT's and CT's eyes when TH and LotR were published, so the original inclusion of LEP had nothing to do with any kind of statement about the Legendarium.

Well, one could argue that the mythology was fully formed (certainly in Tolkien's mind) when Tolkien began TH, & despite Rateliff's arguments to the contrary TH was not written with anything but a very indirect relation to the Legendarium - yes, the early drafts contain references to Beren & Luthien, along with Gondolin & such, but they also contain references to China, the Hindu Kush & Shetland ponies.

2. Inclusion of LEP was related to the fact that Tolkien started LotR as a sequel to TH. Even if LotR grew beyond that intention, the original intention is not negated.

It could be argued that by the time The New Hobbit became LotR it had ceased to be a sequel to TH & become the final movement of the Silmarillion. Tolkien clearly stated that he 'did not approve of The Hobbit' preferring instead his own mythology. Of course, once LotR did become part of the Sil proper he was stuck with TH - which is neither part of the mythology proper (in CT's opinion - which is the main reason TH is not included in HoM-e). I think this is confirmed by the fact that he struggled & failed to make it (or a version/retelling of it) fit the mood & style of the Legendarium. Flieger doesn't count it as part of the Legendarium either, & dislikes it intensely (which I don't - its one of my favourite books)

3. Inclusion of such chapters as LEP was a publishing strategy related to marketing. It was designed to inspire readers to buy more books (and maybe even pad a smallish book to make it seem more substantial). It was not designed to make a statement about any kind of authorial universe, about which readers at the time knew nothing.

That I accept - a clear marketing strategy. Of course, most recent pb editions of TH have included LEP. Personally, I find it leaves TH feeling 'unfinished'. Rather than a complete tale in its own right, with a beginning, middle & end it is reduced to a prequel to LotR.

4. Removing LEP from an edition of TH which is not represented as an exact reprinting of the original first edition and which includes several other items would represent a revision to the history of publication of TH. It happened. Discussing it of course is legitimate--many people do enjoy the wriggling aspect of argument--but to erase it is the worst sort of historical revisionism.

I don't see how it constitues 'revisionism' at all. Tolkien never authorised LEP to be included in TH, & it seems to me to be simply an extended advert for LotR.

I think the bottom line is Th wasn't written as a sequel to or continuation of the mythology as it existed at the time of writing, once the New Hobbit had become part of The Sil mythology Tolkien was stuck with TH & repeatedly tried & failed to properly integrate it & in the end gave up. TH should be seen as a stand alone tale, not as the precursor to something greater. If readers want to see it as a part of the Legendarium proper they are free to do so - Rateliff provides enough 'evidence' to convince those who want to be convinced (against the clear statements of both Tolkien pere & fils) but adding LEP is an attempt to tie TH directly into LotR & thus to The Sil mythology, when there is a strong (some of us would say convincing) argument to be made that it it not.

EDIT more from Rateliff on this here http://sacnoths.blogspot.com/2007/09...-seen-two.html

[Bêthberry]

Thank you, davem, for rehearsing the argument about TH's status in the Legendarium. I'm sure there would be one or two Downers at least who are reading this thread who might not previously have been acquainted with the argument.

But to focus on the new Tolkien books aspect of this topic, I doubt that any of us have access to Tolkien's mind at the time he wrote TH or recited it to his children (or at any other time for that matter), so it's a bit dodgy saying what existed in his mind. Millions of marriages might be headed for the rocks if we could read minds so easily--or possibly be salvaged--especially after the fact.

And I'm ever so intrigued by that announcement in the 1937Allen and Unwin catalogue. I wonder who wrote it?

Originally Posted by Announcement of The Hobbit's publication

The period is the ancient time between the age of Faerie and the dominion of men when the famous forest of Mirkwood was still standing and the mountains were full of danger.

Here's the link you provided on Esty's TH birthday thread: Announcement of TH

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Thank you, davem, for rehearsing the argument about TH's status in the Legendarium. I'm sure there would be one or two Downers at least who are reading this thread who might not previously have been acquainted with the argument.

Don't mention it. That's what i'm here for.

But to focus on the new Tolkien books aspect of this topic, I doubt that any of us have access to Tolkien's mind at the time he wrote TH or recited it to his children (or at any other time for that matter), so it's a bit dodgy saying what existed in his mind. Millions of marriages might be headed for the rocks if we could read minds so easily--or possibly be salvaged--especially after the fact.

i think I quite fairly presented the evidence & offered up CT & Flieger as proponents of the TH is not part of the Legendarium argument & Rateliff as part of the oh yes it is lobby. Lot's of us have attempted to guess what was in his mind at various times, what his motives were, or why he even bothered at all, when he could just have got seriously drunk & found a nice comfortable gutter to lie down in.

And I'm ever so intrigued by that announcement in the 1937Allen and Unwin catalogue. I wonder who wrote it?

Here's the link you provided on Esty's TH birthday thread: Announcement of TH

Possibly Tolkien himself - sounds like his phraseology. Of course 'age of faerie' could mean 'world of the Legendarium' (Fairies at that time still being a name for Elves) - which is what Rateliff would argue, or it could just mean 'age of fairytale' where Elves & fairies rode Shetland ponies over the Hindu Kush...

[davem]

A new edition of CoH - for the collectors (& older Downers) the large print edition

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...bookdeposi-21/

Oh, & Amazon.ca state that the paperback CoH is published April 7th 2008 - doesn't mention if the paintings are included.
http://www.amazon.ca/Children-Hurin-...0834773&sr=8-4

[Valier]

I'm not sure if it is new, but has anyone read "Children of Hurin"? I just recently bought it because I've never seen it before. It has alot of the same stuff that is in the Sil and Unfinished tales, but there is a bunch of new stuff added. If it is new I can surely find out what was newly added and share what I've found.