The Truth of the Uruk-hai

[Galin]

I agree that Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk' does not denote 'hybrids' of course, and certainly Saruman's Uruk-hai are also Uruks (which is an anglicized plural)... but I do not think Uruks are necessarily hybrids however.

I find no certain evidence to date (many theories yes) that an Uruk is more (with respect to blood) than a 'great soldier orc', better trained and generally larger than other types.

The Uruk-hai are directly referred to as Orcs (or translation 'goblins'), but not directly (to my knowledge) referred to as 'half-orcs, man-orcs, orc-men' (though some think they are, by way of interpretation).

Incidentally, some argue that all Uruk-hai can be called Uruks but not all Uruks are properly called 'Uruk-hai'. Not that I necessarily agree with that, but the new information of 'Orc-folk' has not changed this argument it seems, as the claim is that Uruk-hai had (for whatever reason) properly become a 'tribal-name' of the Isengarders.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good. Really nice input now from everyone. To avoid confusion, I'll just put in three of my main questions now (you may try to put an answer to them, or just leave them be and go on in the discussion. I also hope my usage of the terms "Uruk" and "Uruk-hai" have not created misunderstanding, I divided them just for technical purposes of being clear). The questions are connected together, answer to one means answer to the others, but they are supposed to bring together the answerer to noticing all facts.

1. Were the Uruk-hai like Uglúk (not the "half-orcs" - for avoiding confusion, imagine Uglúk as a specific example of the race) somehow crossed with Men or not?

2. Were the Uruk-hai of Isengard the same as the Uruk-hai of Mordor?

3. Could all the "big Orcs" go well with the light?

My own answers - waiting for someone else's agreeing or disagreeing:

1. Nothing specifically says they were. They were almost man-high and went all right in the light. But the Uruk-hai of Mordor were also almost man-high. The question remains about the light.

2. See above and see below; but for starters, let's say this: if they were to differ in anything, it would have to be the origin of Isengarders, if they are indeed crossed with Men. If they are not, both the races are probably the same.

3. Now that's just it. There is that statement of Treebeard, and I think we can agree with his wisdom collected through the ages, at least in this case surely.

Originally Posted by Treebeard

It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.

This, for me, is a signal that the Orcs of Saruman are the only ones who can go quite well with the Sun. The lesser goblins are afraid and exhausted, the greater goblins are exhausted a little bit more, but the Uruk-hai of Isengard have no problem and they are the only ones. If this is true, then this would be a symptome of different origin. The Orcs of Sauron are just Orcs of Morgoth, ultimately, from the same origin. Morgoth was Sauron's master, all that comes from Sauron is just another use of the original things of Morgoth. Sauron's Uruks are upgraded Morgoth's Orcs. Saruman's Orcs are a new race: created by Saruman alone. (Technically speaking. Of course, if Saruman indeed crossed Orcs with Men, he still had Morgoth's Orcs to begin with - ultimately, all evil streams from Morgoth. But Saruman has his own input in the work, where Sauron had none or very little. Sauron uses Morgoth's ways* to enhance Morgoth's creatures, Saruman uses Saruman's ways to enhance Morgoth's creatures.)

If Treebeard is right, then Sauron's Uruk-hai are not of the kind to stroll whistling under the Sun. With that, #3 is answered: no. If that's right, then there is something different in the Isengarders. With that, #2 is answered: no. If that's right, the only logical conclusion of the problem is the one to which Treebeard comes when he continues his formerly quoted speech:

Originally Posted by Treebeard

I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?

Either of these would be answer to #1. And that's, technically, why I think the Uruk-hai of Mordor are indeed in the position to say "we are something more" - they are right (whether it's good or bad, even from the view of Orcs, is another matter).

So that's about it.

*i.e. the ways Morgoth taught him

[Rumil]

Hi all,

interesting discussion here, but on this issue I think I side with Galin.

In my view orcs etc can be organised like this-

1- Orcs

1a- snagas, mountain maggots, 'The Hobbit' goblins -small orcs
1b- everyday orcs, Grishnakh's company, majority of Mordor orcs - medium orcs
1c- Uruks and Uruk-Hai of Mordor and Isengard - big orcs

2- Halforcs ie man-orcs, orc-men, goblin-men - Saruman's speciality
2a- Halforcs that are obviously orcish
2b- Halforcs that could be mistaken for men

Are there Uruk-hai in Mordor? Yes indeed- according to the tracker in Mordor

then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's the whole lot together

Are halforcs and Saruman's Uruks different? I think UT implies this at the Battles of the fords of the Isen with

the sudden assault of the massed Uruks

followed a few lines later by

there appeared a company of men or orc-men

and

Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man

where its clear that the elite company of orc-men is different from the heavily armed Uruks.

To say nothing of Aragorn's comments

[Galin]

And I'll look at Orcs and the Sun

I would think Orcs like to brag if they are good at something (or better than other orcs at something). Saruman's Isengarders don't appear to mind the Sun indeed, but why? This might be something 'new' that would be beyond Treebeard's general expectations, but the reason need not be because they have mannish blood (the Uruk-hai boast that they eat man's-flesh incidentally).

I note that immediately following the Northerners complaint about running under the Sun they are derided as 'half-trained' mountain maggots, which could possibly mean that Saruman's Uruks are indeed well-trained to endure it easily.

'By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half-trained. Run, curse you!' The Uruk-Hai

Of course that may be 'slim' evidence to some, but it looms large enough to me, coming in direct response to this concern from the chief of the Isengarders himself, and considering also that: the troop from Mordor run very well under the Sun too, and do not complain about it... and (by following the description in the text) it appears that even a few of the larger bolder Northerners run with the Isengarders.

In The Battles of the Fords of Isen (Unfinished Tales) Saruman has Dunlendings, Orcish wolfriders, followed by two battalions of Uruks ' ...the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles.' No specific mention of the Sun there of course, but we find they are trained to move at great speed when heavily armed. Also noting: 'It [the word uruk] referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor.' JRRT Quendi And Eldar, War of the Jewels

Emphasis on training; and perhaps Saruman's lot are better trained (in general) than even many of Sauron's Uruks, but Sauron has numbers that Saruman cannot match, so his forces need to be at their best. I'll give you man-flesh (he promises) but you will train to be 'better' even under the Sun.

In The Battle Of The Pelennor Fields the Orcs of Mordor appear to fight on after the Sun shines (a great wind blew, and the rain went North). The hosts of Mordor, which I would say included Orcs (Orcs that are said, after Aragorn is revealed, to have hated the Sunlight), were actually heartened by the Black Sails. Éomer's words include singing in the Sun as he prepared to face Mordor, and then Aragorn and Company are revealed and a dread falls upon the enemy. Indeed these Orcs do not like the Sun but appear quite ready to battle on when thinking that the ships contained enemies of the West.

Orcs don't like the Sun. Perhaps even Saruman's Isengarders would prefer darkness if given the choice, but in any case the evidence appears to show that the Isengarders are arguably better at enduring it than others, and even possibly matched by 'larger, bolder' Northerners. Confusion again might arise at Helm's Deep as the Orcs (the Uruk-hai) and the half-orcs may not mind the Sun, but Gamling need not be equating half-orcs and Orc-men with the Uruk-hai.

The Mordorians run 'hour after hour' without complaint, and even when they drop back at one point, the text makes it clear that 'the writer of the tale' cannot know (or tell) the exact reason why (the writer gives two options for the Reader to entertain).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Excellent points, Galin. I would add this, from Helm's Deep:

'What of the dawn?' they jeered. 'We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day....We come to kill, by sun or moon. What of the dawn?

Now at the beginning and end of this exchange the narrator tells us "The Orcs yelled and jeered;" and it is they (not the narrator) who repeatedly declare "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!"

Now it's entirely unclear whether these particular Uruks are purebreed Orcs, or hybrids more Orkish than human- but clearly they fit on the "orc" side of the ledger.

**********

Tolkien does however tell us that the Isengarders of Ugluk's command are superior (whether through breeding or training) to Grishnakh's crew: in his notes on the marching speed of the Orcs across Rohan, T states that Isengarders can go 'faster' (by some unspecified amount) than regular Uruks' 4 mi/hr; and that they only need 30 vice 60 minutes' rest every six hours.

************
Consider both the "half-trained" comment, which Ugluk makes it at the foot of the Emyn Muil, in the dark: "Run while night lasts!"; andwhen the 'maggots' truly start to lag, as the Rohirrim pursue them, there is no question that the Northerners' fatigue is connected with the sun:

They were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolled out.

'Maggots!' jeered the Isengarders. 'You're cooked!'

(The 'maggots' of course had expressed amazement at Ugluk's order earlier to keep on running by day). The Isengarders then put on a 'terrific spurt' of speed; Grishnakh's group, trailing, also begins to 'put on speed ' but it's unclear how much.

It's clear therefore that with regard to the mountain-Orcs and the Lugburz contingent 'training' (and perhaps Orc-breed) is the principal difference: even including resistance to the Sun (after all, the mountain-orcs hardly ever see it). As pointed out above, Mordor-orcs frequently manage to march and fight by day. Grishnakh's group in fact cover 100m in 35 hours straight, including 12 of daylight. But what of the Isengarders? Is their sun-resistance even better? Are Ugluk's bunch in fact hybrids, or are they simply superior in training and readiness?

Now they clearly regard themselves as Uruks, though of a superior type. Ugluk twice says words to the effect of "leave it to the Uruk-hai of Isengard to sort things out" Notably, he says this once to Grishnakh and once to one of his own trackers (addressed as "Snaga"). It would appear that the import is to distinguish U-h of I from, on the one hand, Uruk-hai of Mordor, and on the other hand lesser Orcs of Isengard. I have no problem associating Ugluk and his command with the Uruk-hai at Helm's deep referenced above. But are they hybrids?

We know that they are large, and carry both swords and bows that resemble those of Men rather than Orcs- but that could just be Saruman's quartermaster-general.

When we first see him, Ugluk is "a large black Orc." Grishnakh is "a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground." The Northeners are "smaller goblins." Well, that doesn't help much.

Perhaps more interesting is a subtle difference in accounts of the attacking force at Helm's Deep. Merry's account of the army talks about two groups of "Men"- those who are grim but not especially evil, obviously Dunlendings, and other with goblin-faces, like the "southerner" but even more Orkish. Then of course there were "endless lines of marching Orcs" as well as wolfriders. But when we read the aftermath of Helm's deep, these Orc-men have disappeared, apparently subsumed. Where? Theoden sets the Dunlendings to work and then releases them, whereas the Orcs are annihilated- there's no mention of Orc-men. Are they to be classed with the rest of the "Orcs," since they're plainly not Dunlendings?

I would propose, as a working hypothesis, that Uruks of all types can be *trained* to tolerate the Sun, although it is still detrimental to purebreed Orcs. In the Pelennor fields, it's interesting that from sunrise and the great Charge onwards the only effective enemies mentioned are various types of Men, until with Aragorn's arrival Imrahil drives various Southrons and "orcs that hated the sunlight;" and *men* fly before Eomer's face. The latter part of the battle, "hard fighting and long labour", again has Southrons and Easterlings as the only named enemies. It would appear as if once the Darkness breaks the Mordor-Orcs have become non-factors in the battle;* although they can function in sunlight, their effectiveness as warriors appears to be enormously compromised.

By contrast, the creatures of Saruman's breeding, including those sufficiently Orkish to consider themselves Uruks, simply don't mind the sun at all. This is what Treebeard observes of them, and what they say of themselves: and one would be forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight; therefore, that all of Saruman's Uruk-hai and his non-Dunlending "Men" were hybrids, although his trackers and wolfriders were not necessarily so.


*Not to mention the mountain-trolls that wielded Grond, who presumably are now giant statues!

[Galin]

Littlemanpoet wrote: 'Also, eating man-flesh is no distinguisher of orcishness; cannibals eat man-flesh and they're men.'

Quite true but note also the seemingly derisive remark later: 'It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant'. I'm not even close to being an expert on this but I think some forms of cannibalism are based on warfare and 'eating the enemy'. In this light at least, the Uruk-hai claim that they eat Men -- they eat the 'others' (or in the Primary World the 'other tribe' who are not 'us' but foes) -- and the scoffing comment could be something like (in my opinion): 'ha, you really eat 'us' (Orcs)'.

But however one interprets this, it's only a small part of the puzzle in any case.

William Cloud Hicklin wrote: 'I would propose, as a working hypothesis, that Uruks of all types can be *trained* to tolerate the Sun, although it is still detrimental to purebreed Orcs.'

OK but are you already interpreting here that there are Uruks ('Orcs') who are hybrid? My interpretation is that Uruks and Uruk-hai are Orcs, selectively or specially bred Orcs, trained and disciplined. Uruks were bred in Mordor (with no Men involved) and later, 'many' joined Saruman.

Would Saruman's Uruks be that much different from the large Uruks in Moria, and the huge, swart chieftain? Maybe, maybe not. Many compare the Isengarders to Grishnakh and Company, or to the Orcs at Cirith Ungol later, but the huge chieftain need not be the sole example in all of Mordor of such a formidable Orc.

'In the Pelennor fields, it's interesting that from sunrise and the great Charge onwards the only effective enemies mentioned are various types of Men, until with Aragorn's arrival Imrahil drives various Southrons and "orcs that hated the sunlight;" and *men* fly before Eomer's face. The latter part of the battle, "hard fighting and long labour", again has Southrons and Easterlings as the only named enemies. It would appear as if once the Darkness breaks the Mordor-Orcs have become non-factors in the battle;* although they can function in sunlight, their effectiveness as warriors appears to be enormously compromised.

I'm not sure I would agree that this characterization (enormously compromised by the Sun) appears to be so.

My interpretation: the initial charge of the Rohirrim was the great cause of sending Orcs fleeing towards the River 'like herds before the hunters'. Highly trained mounted warriors were very effective here (as expected), but on the 'further half of the plain were other hosts still unfought' -- the main force of the Haradrim for one -- and with respect to those horsemen who next charged the Rohirrim, note that 'fewer were they [the Rohirrim] but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest'. Indeed the Southron cavalry that was left alive turned and fled as well, so these fared little better than the Orcs, despite being horsed.

Of course there were more Haradrim, and ultimately the Rohirrim are in trouble; and Gothmog sends Easterlings, Variags, Southrons and men 'like half-trolls' into the fray. The Sun is shining but are all the Orcs gone? I think not but Tolkien merely generalizes with the 'hosts of Mordor' being 'enheartened, and filled with a new lust and fury' (because they thought the Corsairs had arrived of course). Then the 'hosts of Mordor' realize their mistake, and it is then that the knights of Dol Amroth drive the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags (repeating these forces from earlier in the text) and 'Orcs that hated the Sunlight' -- so to my mind there were still Orcs in the host (though simply unmentioned earlier), and now they are dealing with more cavalry!

And indeed as noted, there was yet more work to be done. But note too that the Southrons were described as 'fierce in despair', and the Easterlings asked for no quarter. I imagine however that if many Orcs still lived on the field they would arguably be looking for a way out, fleeing instead of rallying, and the text notes that there were those (in general) who fled to die, or drowned in the River. The Southrons and Easterling were arguably tougher to deal with due to size alone, not to mention they appear to have refused to flee once the tide had turned. Once one had decided it's 'to the death' (instead of 'for victory') that can heighten the effectiveness of already hardened warriors. They become the 'notable' opposition left yes, to someone writing about this great battle, but in short, the lack of mention of effective Orcs at this point need have nothing to do with the Sun -- or at least it need not mean their effectiveness was enormously (a strong word) compromised by it.

Did the Sun help? Probably not. Were the Mordorian Orcs as well trained to endure the Sun as Saruman's Uruks? Probably not in general but (back to earlier in the tale) the boasting of the Uruk-hai might tend to mispresent the actual measure of their 'dominance' in this -- indeed they are clearly better than most of the Northerners, yes, but that is not really under question here.

By contrast, the creatures of Saruman's breeding, including those sufficiently Orkish to consider themselves Uruks, simply don't mind the sun at all. This is what Treebeard observes of them, and what they say of themselves: and one would be forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight; therefore, that all of Saruman's Uruk-hai and his non-Dunlending "Men" were hybrids, although his trackers and wolfriders were not necessarily so.'

However it is not clearly established (or agreed upon by all) that Treebeard has observed the Uruk-hai and only them -- and if indeed he has, he can be right that Saruman has mixed Orcs with Men (which is but one of his 'wonderings' of course, in any case), but still can be wrong if he thinks this applies to the Uruk-hai. Treebeard is working on a general principle here, and arguably needs more experience with the Orcs of the Third Age (and now that I think of it, I have yet to investigate if every pre-Third Age battle that included Orcs was always conducted under Darkness).

Within this hypothesis I note 'stepping stones' -- interpretations that help lead one down a certain path. Not necessarily 'wrong' ideas or unreasonable; if fact perfectly understandable and possible in my opinion, but not necessarily the only reasonable possibilities either. And so one is not really forced to conclude that Saruman's Uruks did have sufficient admixture of human genes to tolerate sunlight (and etc.), rather this conclusion is but a conclusion, not necessarily 'the' conclusion.

My theory includes different stepping stones of course, leading down a different path to a variant outcome.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As I said, it's a working hypothesis- one (rough) way to explain the observed data.

There are two datum points which to me are anchors:

1) Saruman did indeed breed human-orc hybrids. This is not merely Treebeard's opinion, but something Tolkien explicitly stated.

2) The Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep declare proudly that the Sun doesn't bother them in the slightest: and the only explanation offered anywhere for such a thing lies in an admixture of Mannish genes.

From these two postulates I think it flows necessarily that Saruman bred some part of his Uruks with human stock. What proportion or which ones is much thornier territory.

(BTW: I'm fully prepared to condider Ghrishnakh and his band 'fully-trained soildier-Orcs', i.e. Uruk-hai. Their running performance is as astounding as Ugluk's, if not more so.)

[littlemanpoet]

To borrow from Rumil:
In my view orcs can be organised like this-

1a- snagas, mountain maggots, 'The Hobbit' goblins -small orcs
1b- everyday orcs, Grishnakh's company, majority of Mordor orcs - medium orcs
1c- Uruks or Uruk-hai of Mordor - big orcs
1d- Uruk-Hai of Isengard - various shades of mixture of orc and Men
1e- Halforcs that are obviously orcish
1f- Halforcs that could be mistaken for men

1d through 1f are all Saruman's specialty.

Also, eating man-flesh is no distinguisher of orcishness; cannibals eat man-flesh and they're men.