Typos (or: Is it a Freudian slip?)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oh dear .. he was rather an innocent in some ways *cough* teleporno, shagrat *cough*

Well, he never gave us Lewdthien and Baren. Or Bear-in.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Well, he never gave us Lewdthien and Baren. Or Bear-in.

My theory is that he was too involved with the languages to realise the absurdity of some names or dubious meanings . .. I mean I am sorry but Tuna as a place name?

I know too well the pitfalls of teaching beginners german, the words for "go" and "father" are liable to cause mass hysteria among the young - mind you I was in a very serious and grown up choir which also suffered bouts of mass hysteria while rehearsing the Haydn "Stabat Mater"

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

My theory is that he was too involved with the languages to realise the absurdity of some names or dubious meanings . .. I mean I am sorry but Tuna as a place name?

Its probably more complicated. Tolkien was (overly??) serious about his language creation, & couldn't simply change a single word or name without changing the structure, grammar, syntax &, er.... stuff of the whole language. Quenya & Sindarin were interconnected, & he couldn't change 'Teleporno' without also changing 'Celeborn', & if he'd changed the names he'd have had to change the meaning of the roots (oo er missus!).

The main reason Tolkien's languages are so convincing is that they aren't just collections of random syllables, but 'actual' languages, with their own rules. CT points out that he wouldn't simply invent a new word for one of his languages, but would have to work out the changes that word would have undergone over, potentially, thousands of years.

I can't help feeling that he would have been fully aware of the 'double meanings' ......

[Mithalwen]

I agree to a point but I doubt that Orcish was so precious that Shagrat couldn't have had a different name. My sister, who sneered at Tolkien for years until she became possibly the world oldest Leggybopper nearly crashed her car when she caught that part of the BBC adaptation on the radio ..... even with the careful stress employed by the owners of Shih Tzu dogs...

When one of the disparaging reviewers of CoH said that Thingol was the silliest name among Tolkien's characters I knew he probably didn't have a good knowledge of the oeuvre...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I agree to a point but I doubt that Orcish was so precious that Shagrat couldn't have had a different name.

When one of the disparaging reviewers of CoH said that Thingol was the silliest name among Tolkien's characters I knew he probably didn't have a good knowledge of the oeuvre...

I think sound outweighed primary world connotations - 'Shaggratt' & 'Gorrbagg' sound harsh & brutal (& ugly), while Thingol has a generally 'soft' sound, but with a hint of 'hardness'. I suppose its the 'cellar door' thing ('English & Welsh).

However, I'm starting to wonder whether I haven't dragged this thread away from Mirth towards Books .....

[Lalwendë]

I don't think that Shagrat would have been anything all that funny to Tolkien though? Given that there was a dance craze called The Shag in the early 60s, it must have been some time before teens started laughing at the 'other' meaning (given that teens are usually the first to pick up on rude words anyway).

[Mithalwen]

I did a bit of research and it has been used in the "rude sense" since the 17th century although not always widespread ...after all in Australia, even on my first visit "too feel like a shag on a rock" mean to feel very tired like a seabird who has reached land after a very long swim .....