Silmarillion-movie?

[Sauron the White]

Simply because Tolkien does not describe the step by step process in the killing of each of tens of thousands of beings, does not mean that it is not violent in its own right. How can you write a book with all of that killing, battles, wars, destruction, murder and mayhem and then take the high road saying its really not his cup of tea? To suggest otherwise is to put on a nice shiny pair of the rosiest glasses ever invented. The action and darker side of the Middle-earth stories are as much as what Tolkien is as anything else in the books.

I simply disagree with both your sanitized view of what is in the books and the Tolkien Estates carrying out of such a viewpoint creating less than complete illustrated editions.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

In my book there is a "nice" little drawing of dead elves as well as one of a dead Glaurung. I would say that both these drawings has what you ask for, the first one is quite brutal (but not vulgar) and the second one has a monster.

The conserns about what is potrayed might not be baseless, but they are certainly not as big problems as they are made out to be. . . . We all want different things and most of the time we don't get what we want.
I would have like to see sertain landscapes in the illustrations, but other motives where picked. That is too bad, but I doubt that it is because of some plot against these particular landscapes.

Don't blow things out of porportion

And just for the record: I belive that it does matter if the battles and killings are written in great graphic detail or not. If a writter finds something important they will put extra focus on the event, point it out to you.
Now Tolkien seldom goes into great detail about the killings and battles, but yet there is quite a lot of them. The thing is that war is what drives these kind of stories about heros and their deeds, that Tolkien wanted to write. If you look at what he spends time on, it is what goes on between charachters (and sometimes he likes to descripe a landscape), he seldom uses alot of time on the battle itself. The battle is there because it needs to be in order to drive the story forth.

Yes killings has a place in the story, but the main focus does not lie on how many orcs Turin killed and how he killed them.

At least that is my take on it, not having given it very much thought.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Simply because Tolkien does not describe the step by step process in the killing of each of tens of thousands of beings, does not mean that it is not violent in its own right. How can you write a book with all of that killing, battles, wars, destruction, murder and mayhem and then take the high road saying its really not his cup of tea? To suggest otherwise is to put on a nice shiny pair of the rosiest glasses ever invented. The action and darker side of the Middle-earth stories are as much as what Tolkien is as anything else in the books.

I simply disagree with both your sanitized view of what is in the books and the Tolkien Estates carrying out of such a viewpoint creating less than complete illustrated editions.

Yes but you still haven't told us exactly what kind of imagery you'd like to se in the books. As Rune points out, there are a number of images of Glaurung, of Orcs of dead warriors in the book, & the imagery (particularly the black & white imagery) is quite dark.

Tolkien made a conscious decision not to go into explicit detail as regards the depiction of violence (& made the same decision as regards 'Orcish' speech) & the Estate have made the same decision as regards its depiction in the imagery used. In fact, he didn't go into much detail in the description of his monsters - hence the arguments re Balrog's wings. Personally, I don't want such lurid images in Tolkien's books so I'm happy with that decision.

[Sauron the White]

Yes but you still haven't told us exactly what kind of imagery you'd like to se in the books

Perhaps it would help if I use but a single chapter from the latest book THE CHILDREN OF HURIN. Lets use an early chapter - II The Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The only illustration in this entire chapter is the very small b&w heading peice above the chapter title on page 52 featuring a group of soldiers standing still and doing what? Watching a soccer game? Waiting for the lunchline to move a bit faster? Asked to all say cheese in the group photo? Who knows since there is no story element or drama to this piece of any kind.

Here is a list of possible scenes in this chapter which would make far better illustrations cappturing great moments that JRRT writes of.

p. 53 - Fingon looks north and beholds Thangorodrim
p. 54 the host of Morgoth marching out of Angband
p. 55 Gwindor slaying the heralds of Angband
p. 56 the light of drawing of swords of the Noldor like a filed of reeds
p. 56 fighting in the courts of Angband
p. 57 Turgon hewes through ranks of orcs to get to the side of his brother
p. 58 Turgon vs. Gothmog
p. 59 All the hosts of Angband encircle the House of Haldor
p. 60 Hurin slaying the trolls as they attempt to capture him... or
p. 60 a bound Hurin being led by Gothmog to Angband

There are ten different ideas for illustrations which would be dramatic and have great possibility. I am not suggesting that each be illustrated and the book turned into a comic novel. Any one would have been far better than the lead in illustration which was selected. Several would have made beautiful color plates especially the drawing of swords on page 56.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

There are ten different ideas for illustrations which would be dramatic and have great possibility. I am not suggesting that each be illustrated and the book turned into a comic novel. Any one would have been far better than the lead in illustration which was selected. Several would have made beautiful color plates especially the drawing of swords on page 56.

There is a painting by Lee of the assault on Angband in the CoH Calendar, so its there if you want to see it.

Lee's approach to illustrating Tolkien's work has been consistent since he took on LotR - he finds out where the plates will go in the book & paints an image based on the events described on the facing page. This is why one of the illustrations for LotR (facing page 576) is just a painting of a stream, rather than an action shot. In other words, he puts his illustrations in the service of the text.

While your suggestions are interesting, there's no evidence that Lee had any desire to paint those pictures but was stopped from doing so. Lee has stated that his approach is to let the author tell the story, & that his images are designed to help establish the 'mood' of the story rather than dominate it - which I suspect your suggestions would. You have to keep in mind that Lee is providing illustrations for a book, rather than stand alone works of art to be shown in a gallery ( a trap Naismith has a tendency to fall into sometimes - as does John Howe). I honestly feel that the kind of graphic images you're suggesting would have been in danger of overwhelming the text.

Actually, the three paintings which appear only in the calendar (the 'Nargothrond' painting (sans Glaurung), the one of the assault on Angband, & (my personal favourite of all the images Lee produced for CoH) Morwen, Nienor & the Elves riding through an autumn landscape of reeds & willows (no blood or monsters ) are wonderful, & I wish they had been included in the book. None of them 'over emphasise' the dark & monstrous, but they didn't fit with Lee's 'rule' - there wasn't a plate available opposite the pages where those events are described.

What I would say about your choice of images is that none of them 'breaks the rules' - any of those scenes could be depicted - it would depend on how explicit & lurid the images were (Lee has a couple of 'battle scenes' in TH & LotR). My question wasn't what images you wanted to see, but what kind of images - ie, whether you really wanted to see close ups of graphic violence & such or not. All the images you suggest could be depicted in long/medium shot, either just before the actual event, or moments after it - which is more in line with Tolkien's approach - focussing on the effects of violence & exploring its consequences, rather than reveling in the act itself.

[Sauron the White]

from davem

This is why one of the illustrations for LotR (facing page 576) is just a painting of a stream, rather than an action shot. In other words, he puts his illustrations in the service of the text.

If an illustrator does their job correctly, EVERY ILLUSTRATION should be in the service of the text. None of the ones I suggested violate this rule. Perhaps you and I have a different approach to illustration. The Lee illustration in LOTR of a stream may serve as an example. I have no problem with Lee wanting to do that scene. However, I would ask for a simple addition to give it some meaning within the realm of Middle-earth. What makes this stream stand out as something in Middle-earth as opposed to just any old stream illustration that the artist may have had laying in a drawer? In other words, make it related to Middle-earth or something very specific that can be identified by the reader. I do concede that in a massive undertaking such as the illustration of the complete LOTR, one can get away with several purely atmospheric shots that do not necessarily depict key or dramatic moments in the text.

While your suggestions are interesting, there's no evidence that Lee had any desire to paint those pictures but was stopped from doing so. Lee has stated that his approach is to let the author tell the story, & that his images are designed to help establish the 'mood' of the story rather than dominate it - which I suspect your suggestions would.

My list of suggestions was merely to comply with you asking me what illustrations I would have preferred. I made no charge that Lee wanted to do any of these or was stopped from doing any of the ones on my list of ten. Of course, we do not know if he wanted to do any of these or not. I suspect that you and I want different things in illustration. It seems - and correct me if I am wrong - that you favor some type of setting the mood or getting the atmosphere of the tale. I first want the more dramatic moments depicted and then a minority of mood pieces to flesh things out a bit. Perhaps our priorities are reversed. If so, that would explain some things and why we have such differing opinions.

None of them 'over emphasise' the dark & monstrous, but they didn't fit with Lee's 'rule' - there wasn't a plate available opposite the pages where those events are described.

While that explaination may suffice for the color plates, there are no such restrictions on the b&w pieces. The illustrator seemed to have a free reign in that regard. The color plates do appear after every 16 pages. I really have no objection to having an illustration on one facing page while the text may be a few pages apart from it. Some of the greatest book illustrators in history such as N.C. Wyeth and Arthur Rackham worked that way and it worked out wonderfully for both illustrator and reader. Speaking for myself, I would think it is far more important to come up with a great illustration of a key scene than it is merely to have an illustration fall opposite the text. Are we that stupid that we cannot accept an illustration if the text is not right there with arrows pointing to it? I certainly hope not.

My question wasn't what images you wanted to see, but what kind of images - ie, whether you really wanted to see close ups of graphic violence & such or not.

That would depend on the scene. Despite your protestations to the contrary, there are some gruesome images and descriptions in JRRT's writings. In CofH, on page 55 -

"And they hewed off Gelmir's arms and legs, and left him". Now that is pretty up front in your face gruesome.

I greatly prefer more panoramic shots which get in lots of figures, landscape or architecture and other elements. Alan Lee's Helms Deep illustration is my idea of a perfect battle illustration. I am not looking for a close-up of Gelmir's chopped off limbs in a perfect cross section so we can see blood pumping from veins and see the bone as if in a Christmas ham. But I do not want scenes with violence to be ignored altogether or shoved to the back of the bus. They can be handled with taste and class as JRRT wrote them. Perhaps we can agree on that.

[davem]

Alan Lee:

My chief concern in illustrating LotR was in attempting to provide a visual accompaniment for the story without interfering with, or dislodging, the pictures the author is carefully building up in the reader's mind. i felt that my task lay in shadowing the heroes on their epic quest, often at a distance, closing in on them at times of heightened emotion but avoiding trying to re-create the dramatic high points of the text.....

Such considerations were made simpler by technical ones. Printed seperately on a coated art paper, the pictures had to be positioned at intervals of sixteen or thirty two pages throughout the book. This limitation was recieved gratefully & probably saved weeks of fruitless agonising over which moments to illustrate.

It was important that every picture should be relevant to the text on the opposite page. (from 'Tolkien's World: Paintings of Middle-earth')

As to the B&W illustrations in CoH, Lee has chosen to top & tail the chapters with 'mood pieces'. Its clearly been his approach to Tolkien illustration all along, so I don't see how we can criticise his choice. If you choose AL to illustrate a Tolkien book this is the kind of illustration you'll get. You can complain about the choice of AL as artist, but not about the way he'll illustrate the book.

As to the 'Gelmir' thing, I find it actually more horrible in Tolkien's stark description than it could ever be in any illustration. Also, & I think this is a significant point, some readers have both a more graphic imagination & a stronger stomach than others, & what would be a perfectly acceptable illustration for some readers would be totally unnacceptable to others. Even reading about the death of Gelmir some readers will visualise that in long shot (or not at all) while others picture it in the most extreme & gory close up with blood spurting, hacked off limbs twitching & Gelmir's face contorted in an agonised scream. The text leaves the reader free to imagine the scene as they will, but any illustration would fix a particular image for the reader - which is why AL prefers (according to what he has said) to 'keep his distance'.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Interesting discussion (and I guess I posted in it once upon a time), though I'm not sure it's going anywhere. Incidentally, davem, your quote from the JRRT Letter at the end of page 1 made me smile; that letter is one of my absolute favorites. "Why is such a woman let loose?" makes me want to burst out laughing every time I read it. Tolkien is delightful to read in correspondence as well as in mythmaking.