The Balrog vs The Witch King

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by ninja91

I dont care which side of the Gandalf v. the Witch King debate you are on. The Balrog would indeed be the more powerful over the Witch King. Remember, even Gandalf fled before the Balrog. And if they were not standing on that dinky bridge called Khazad-Dum, the Balrog would have easily defeated Gandalf the Grey.

I disagree. You say he fled, but what he did was see the Fellowship safely to the exit, and then turn to confront the Balrog. When Gandalf describes his duel after their long fall, the Balrog actually ends up fleeing from him, and, needless to say, is eventually defeated despite Gandalf's claim of weariness before the battle.

It's possible that Gandalf believed fighting the Balrog with the Fellowship present would be exactly the kind of powerful display prohibited by the rules of the Istari. Surely they would have found a new reverence for him, and reverence was antithetical to the Istari's intended function.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

What's all this about the Witch King getting upgraded? I'm not familiar with this theory.

9. Leaving the inn at night and running off into the dark is an impossible solution of the difficulties of presentation here (which I can see). It is the last thing that Aragorn would have done. It is based on a misconception of the Black Riders throughout, which I beg Z to reconsider. Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others [though note that he is nevertheless not excluded from the above explication that the Nazgul rely on fear rather than any true power. -obloquy]; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken. See III 114.

This is taken by some to mean that Sauron pumped his own power into the Witch-King for Vol. III (did Sauron know there would only be three volumes?). It is not conclusive, however, and I believe it is clear that Tolkien is referring to narrative choices. First, the letter is in response to an adaptation of the book, and, strangely, this is the only mention of this enhancement anywhere in Tolkien's work. "Added demonic force" is not Tolkien vocabulary, and would only be used in this type of letter--that is, one that discusses narrative choices as opposed to Middle-earth history. Second, he doesn't say "There, given added demonic force by Sauron, he is put in command." This would have conveyed a very specific point, but it's not how Tolkien chose to word it. Instead, the Witch-King is put in command by Sauron, and as a result of that he is given an "added demonic force." It's a felt effect of that new station, not a literal transfusion of power.

Anyway, there's more of that argument over at Gandalf vs. the Witch-King.

[Boromir88]

I never interpretted the quote as obloquy has. I always took it at face value that 'added demonic force' mean the Witch-King received a little bit of a power boost. But, now that obloquy has explained it, he's absolutely right the wording is talking about the Witch-King's rise in stature (you could say importance) from The Fellowship of the Ring to The Return of the King.

The quote comes from Letter 210 where Tolkien responds (rather harshly) to Zimmerman's movie script of his books. In this particular instance Tolkien is referring to the scene on Weathertop where Zimmerman created a 'fight' between the Nazgul and Aragorn. Which Tolkien objected to, he said there was no fight on Weathertop and there should not be a fight on Weathertop.

The Witch-King, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

This is talking about the Witch-King's rise in 'status' (stature - a degree of development/achievement; an achieved level; status).

At Weathertop the Witch-King (being the 'leader of the Nazgul') is in all ways more powerful then them, but he is not at the level of status that he was placed at in Volume III. There, not only is the Witch-King the Lord of the Nazgul, but Sauron places him in command of his entire army. There is a rise in status the Witch-King takes from FOTR to ROTK...it is because of that his importance, his status, is increased. This quote where it supposedly says the Witch-King receives a power boost, is not referring to any 'boost' at all, but saying that the Witch-King's importance, his status, has increased from FOTR to ROTK.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

At Weathertop the Witch-King (being the 'leader of the Nazgul') is in all ways more powerful then them, but he is not at the level of status that he was placed at in Volume III. There, not only is the Witch-King the Lord of the Nazgul, but Sauron places him in command of his entire army. There is a rise in status the Witch-King takes from FOTR to ROTK...it is because of that his importance, his status, is increased. This quote where it supposedly says the Witch-King receives a power boost, is not referring to any 'boost' at all, but saying that the Witch-King's importance, his status, has increased from FOTR to ROTK.

I don't think that the Nazgul were increased in hierarchical status. They were already his mightiest and most trusted servants and their overall abilities put them above all of Sauron's other servants. While Sauron is gone, they are the chief enemies and it is also they who prepare the return of their master. All in all, with what we know, I would say it is safe to presume that, at least at the time of LotR, they were second to Sauron only.

[obloquy]

It's not that some other captain would have outranked the WK before RotK, it's that the WK's job in LotR, up until RotK, was to stalk the Ringbearer with the other Nazgul. In RotK, he's put in command of an army, which raises his status as the reader (or viewer) perceives it, and this was the whole point of Tolkien's letter. It has nothing to do with a promotion of rank, nor an increase of power. He was always Sauron's prime lieutenant, but on the Pelennor his job is no longer to hunt the Ring, it's to command an army in open war.

[Raynor]

I believe there is "reasonable doubt" about this interpretation. The nazgul are already described to the reader in superlatives, be they regarding power or hierarchy. The witch-king is described in the prologue as a powerful and successful leader of armies, Bombadil refers to that too and Gandalf says that Sauron governed Mordor through the nazgul. Moreover, the very wording of "added demonic power" in the context of simply reader perception concerning his role seems somewhat ... uncalled for. Imposing, majestic, frightening or other adjectives might justify this interpretation, but demonic not, imo.

There is only one demonic force in Middle Earth, & that is the Balrog of Morgoth. He has no rank Sauron could give him which he could deem as worthy - he answers only to his master (the Lord of the Balrogs), & more importantly his great master, Morgoth.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mansun

There is only one demonic force in Middle Earth, & that is the Balrog of Morgoth. He has no rank Sauron could give him which he could deem as worthy - he answers only to his master (the Lord of the Balrogs), & more importantly his great master, Morgoth.

Sauron is as much a "demon" as the Balrog is.

Besides, "demonic force" is not here intended as a person, but as a something which the Witch-King acquires more of. The question is whether that something is really something or just a something.

[obloquy]

The witch-king is described in the prologue as a powerful and successful leader of armies, Bombadil refers to that too and Gandalf says that Sauron governed Mordor through the nazgul.

Again, it has nothing to do with actual status and everything to do with perceived status. Yes, the Witch-King had commanded armies (and even held a kingdom) before. In LotR, there is a very obvious transformation taking place from his more or less anonymity among the Nine early on, to his unveiled military leadership on the Pelennor. This transformation does not require any literal power-ups; it's perfectly congruent without them. In fact, your own point that the Witch-King was an accomplished military general before his role in LotR argues against the necessity of a literal enhancement.

Originally Posted by Raynor

the very wording of "added demonic power" in the context of simply reader perception concerning his role seems somewhat ... uncalled for. Imposing, majestic, frightening or other adjectives might justify this interpretation, but demonic not, imo.

Are you saying that because he used the word "demonic," he must be referencing Sauron's nature as a "demon," and therefore the "demonic force" was bestowed by Sauron? I think the word is perfectly applicable without such a connection.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Again, it has nothing to do with actual status and everything to do with perceived status.

I don't see why this would be an issue of actual vs. perceived. The references I mentioned to the witch-king as leader of armies are in the book, for the first time reader to see from the prologue on and are reinforced by the two oldest beings, Gandalf and Bombadil. These are not extraneous informations. If Tolkien reinforced his status time and again, I don't see why he would expect the reader to perceive the WK as not a leader of armies. And to further underscore this interpretation, we see an amazing display of magical power on behalf of the WK at the Pelennor Fields. This level of power is never before witnessed by the reader, regarding the WK, or rather no other character at all.

Originally Posted by The Siege of Gondor

Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

To conclude, while the status of the WK as leader of armies is reinforced time and again before this battle in the books, his show of magic force here is definitely outstanding. To me, the interpretation of added demonic force is obvious.