The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Again, it has nothing to do with actual status and everything to do with perceived status.

I don't see why this would be an issue of actual vs. perceived. The references I mentioned to the witch-king as leader of armies are in the book, for the first time reader to see from the prologue on and are reinforced by the two oldest beings, Gandalf and Bombadil. These are not extraneous informations. If Tolkien reinforced his status time and again, I don't see why he would expect the reader to perceive the WK as not a leader of armies. And to further underscore this interpretation, we see an amazing display of magical power on behalf of the WK at the Pelennor Fields. This level of power is never before witnessed by the reader, regarding the WK, or rather no other character at all.

Originally Posted by The Siege of Gondor

Then the Black Captain rose in his stirrups and cried aloud in a dreadful voice, speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power and terror to rend both heart and stone.

Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

To conclude, while the status of the WK as leader of armies is reinforced time and again before this battle in the books, his show of magic force here is definitely outstanding. To me, the interpretation of added demonic force is obvious.

Here is an interesting scenario. What if the Balrog did kill the Witch King in Moria? What response would Sauron have to the fall of his great Captain? A showdown between the Balrog & Sauron himself would probably be one of the greatest & most tightly fought encounters ever seen in Middle Earth. The Balrog has no master, & is not specifically in league with Sauron, or why else would it not formally join Sauron in Mordor?

Alternatively Sauron could send a host of Trolls, probably upto a hundred to Moria, to deal with the Balrog. . .

[obloquy]

That sounds like a good topic for another one of your intellectual threads!

Originally Posted by obloquy

That sounds like a good topic for another one of your intellectual threads!

Never underestimate the imagination of a human being! I take after Sam Gamgee (& Tolkein) . . . You should try playing Battle For Middle Earth on the PC.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

To conclude, while the status of the WK as leader of armies is reinforced time and again before this battle in the books, his show of magic force here is definitely outstanding. To me, the interpretation of added demonic force is obvious.

Thrice he cried. Thrice the great ram boomed. And suddenly upon the last stroke the Gate of Gondor broke. As if stricken by some blasting spell it burst asunder: there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

I would agree that this is good evidence of the Witch King's added demonic power. As several people have pointed out above or in other contexts, the Witch King (like the other Nazgul) know when to withdraw when they are overmatched. They held back from Gandalf on Weathertop during the daylight, but then closed on him (all nine) after dark, although Gandalf was able to hold them off. Even Aragorn drove them off.

But by the time the Witch King arrives at the Pelennor Field, he is able to break the Gates of the City and to face Gandalf, unless one interprets his departure to check on the horns of the Rohirrim as actually flight from Gandalf, although this does not seem likely given his challenge to Gandalf

'Old fool!, he said. "old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Deathe when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!'

Clearly, the Witch King is feeling as if he can stand up to Gandalf, although it is not clear that understands completely that Gandalf's own power has been substantially enhanced.

Otherwise, the Witch King's breaking of the Gates of the City might be seen as similar to Gandalf's sundering of the Bridge at Khazad-dûm with his staff. This in fact succeeded in sending the Balrog into the depths (even if it did not kill him), and only by a combination of skill with his whip (and perhaps a bit of luck) was he able to take Gandalf with him.

So I'd say the Witch King, at least with his added power, would be quite a match for the Balrog, if it came to that...
'

[obloquy]

Nope.

[Raynor]

I don't think that these arguments:

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Clearly, the Witch King is feeling as if he can stand up to Gandalf, although it is not clear that understands completely that Gandalf's own power has been substantially enhanced.

Otherwise, the Witch King's breaking of the Gates of the City might be seen as similar to Gandalf's sundering of the Bridge at Khazad-dûm with his staff. This in fact succeeded in sending the Balrog into the depths (even if it did not kill him), and only by a combination of skill with his whip (and perhaps a bit of luck) was he able to take Gandalf with him.

would justify this conclusion:

So I'd say the Witch King, at least with his added power, would be quite a match for the Balrog, if it came to that.

The breaking of the bridge was a rather unique event that helped in the end the defeat of the balrog, with little if any chance of its necessity or conditions appearing again. While confidence is definitely an important factor in a battle, it would not suffice in overcoming a balrog, so the WK's belief he can win over Gandalf does not say much about how he would do against the balrog. In some sort of a Condorcet's paradox, we may even find that Gandalf can defeat the balrog, WK can defeat Gandalf (presumably) and the balrog can defeat the WK. Although I think that the WK would generally lose against the balrog, I guess in the end we are talking probabilities of defeat/winning, so we can imagine that if they fought for a large enough number of times in rather similar conditions, at least in one battle the WK would win by chance.

[CSteefel]

Well, take the breaking of the Gates of the City on its own value then, it is an impressive display of force, and as I believe you said, indicates clearly the augmentation of the WK's power.

Otherwise, I agree it is difficult to say how this would play out against a Balrog, since there is ample evidence that the WK was overmatched at various other times, although he seems to have recognized it when this was the case and he withdrew. So it is quite possible he would do the same when faced with a Balrog.

The other possibility that I would not completely discount is that the WK on the Pelennor Fields is not completely aware of the power of some of the players on the field at that time. Gandalf is the obvious one--how would he have known that Gandalf had been sent back, although perhaps others will dispute whether his power is really augmented. In the end, of course, the WK is defeated by Merry and Eowyn, certainly something he did not count on.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yawn. Done to death.



Now, Arwen vs. Eowyn! In the mud-pit! Clothes-ripping allowed! Now, that I'd pay money to see

[Boromir88]

Why does the breaking of the Gate prove an increase in the Witch-King's power? The Witch-King was already a sorcerer:

Those who used the nine rings became might in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.~The Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Also:

King of Angmar long ago Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.~(Gandalf to Pippin) The Siege of Gondor

You don't think all those pretty lights on Amon Sul was all Gandalf now do you? The Witch-King (and most likely the other Ring-wraiths) became 'kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old' because of the use of their nine rings. Just because the Witch-King lights his sword and breaks down the gate doesn't mean he has had an increase in power as he already was a sorcerer with some neat tricks.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Now, Arwen vs. Eowyn! In the mud-pit! Clothes-ripping allowed! Now, that I'd pay money to see

Hey, now. Don't go spoiling this intellectual discussion with tacky lowbrow comments. Let's stick to arguing about the outcome of an imaginary duel between demons and magicians.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Well, take the breaking of the Gates of the City on its own value then, it is an impressive display of force, and as I believe you said, indicates clearly the augmentation of the WK's power.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Neither we, the more knowledgeable fans, nor the first time reader, have witnessed the WK display such force, although he had ample reasons.

No, the Witch-King always had more power than the first two books suggest, but his mission was to hunt in secrecy. That's the whole point. That's why Tolkien says "he must not yet be raised to the stature of III". He is admonishing Zimmerman not to reveal the Witch-King's power this way, because it ruins the effect of his presence on the Pelennor, which is intended to provide him with added demonic force since the reader has not yet seen the Witch-King in this way. He is discussing a narrative design, not the history of LotR.

Originally Posted by Raynor

In this specific context of debate, the alternative interpretation is rather unlikely, for reasons given in this thread.

No, there are no reasons given in this thread that render the alternative interpretation "unlikely." What is unlikely is that Tolkien told this guy who he didn't like some valuable, secret, unprecedented information about Sauron juicing up the Witch-King instead of writing it in one of his canonical texts or in response to a reader who actually cared.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

how would he have known that Gandalf had been sent back

Or that Gandalf was peers with the Witch-King's master Sauron to begin with, yeah?

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Witch King is indeed powerful, & his increased power ensures a battle with a Balrog would be no walkover,

What increased power?

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Clearly, the Witch King is feeling as if he can stand up to Gandalf, although it is not clear that understands completely that Gandalf's own power has been substantially enhanced.
'

Perhaps the Witch King was ordered by Sauron to tackle the threat of Gandalf once & for all. Either way, since Gandalf & the Balrog are both Maia then you would think Sauron would be a more realistic threat. The Witch King is indeed powerful, & his increased power ensures a battle with a Balrog would be no walkover, yet the outcome must ultimately be a victory for the Balrog.

Unfortunately, Tolkein's attempt to saviour the character & integrity of the Witch King in volume III does not bear enough fruit. The Witch King needs to have something about him which the Balrog does not, & it seems only Sauron could fit this role.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

No, the Witch-King always had more power than the first two books suggest

As Tolkien states in that paragraph, the WK's peril is "almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear" he inspires. What other power do you have in mind, before the Pelennor Fields, when his spells crush the gate? Moreover, your own argument about the first two books not depicting WK's power gives more weight to the idea that the issue at the Siege of Gondor is not about showing WK's place in hierarchy, but showing his (inner) power.

but his mission was to hunt in secrecy

Then again, we know from the Hunt for the ring, UT, that Sauron conveyed to the WK that secrecy must be abandoned - that is, before Frodo set out on his quest.

He is admonishing Zimmerman not to reveal the Witch-King's power this way

Tolkien admonishes Zimmerman not for revealing WK's power, but for underestimating it at night.

No, there are no reasons given in this thread that render the alternative interpretation "unlikely."

Well, if you choose to ignore the prologue, Gandalf's and Bombadil's words depicting the WK to the reader as a leader of armies .... fine.