Split Personality?

[Quempel]

Winning one battle does not mean there is enough military strength to win the war. And wars are won in the mind and on paper long before they are won in the battle field. No general is going to send troops out all willy-nilly without a plan, well not a winning general. So yes there was a victory at Helms Deep, but had it not been for the Army of the Dead, Rohan and Gondor would have fallen during the battle at Pelenor Fields, fact it the free living men could not over come the massive army without the aid of the Army of the Dead, and they were a one time shot.

[davem]

Morwen has already stated the situation perfectly. The 'Free People' are already, by the time of the story, effectively finished. Sauron is going to win - he has overwhelming forces & is moving towards the final victory. Its not that the Ring will enable him to break a stalemate, let alone to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Its not a case of 'If Sauron gets this he'll win' but of 'If he gets this then our only chance of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat is gone - but if we can destroy the Ring he will fall'.

Of course there are some (as at the Council) who seem to believe that just keeping the Ring from him ('send it over the Sea'/'give it to Bombadil' etc) will be enough, but they are soon put in their place.

The basics of the plot: Sauron has arisen again & is about to destroy us & take over the world & we thought there was nothing we could do but surrender or go down fighting. Now, however, we have found his Ring, his one vulnerability. If we can destroy the Ring we can destroy him. If he gets hold of it again our only chance to defeat him will be gone.

Sauron doesn't need the Ring to win, he just needs to stop any enemy capable of using it claiming it for himself (or, though this never crossed his mind, destroying it)

[alatar]

Didn't Gandalf say something about your valor being vain, as even without the Ring, the tidal waves of Sauron were coming Westward, and so one could either ride out to meet him or endure siege after siege in whatever strong places remained - regardless, the end of the Free Folk was certain. Sauron, even before his first cup of coffee in the morning was already planning total domination of Middle Earth, and there were few if any on the other side that had the same devotion for keeping that from happening - even Gandalf took a break now and again.

With the Ring Sauron's victory was certain; without, his victory was mostly certain and only delayed somewhat, and a few islands (Rivendell, Lothlorien, the Old Forest) eventually would be all that remained free, and in time even these would fall. Was destroying the One Ring the Third Age's 'Eärendil moment?'

And I concede lipsticked pigs and glycogen.

[Sauron the White]

After reading and rereading the points made by several people here, I do admit that it makes sense now. This particular point from davem rings true

Sauron has arisen again & is about to destroy us & take over the world & we thought there was nothing we could do but surrender or go down fighting. Now, however, we have found his Ring, his one vulnerability. If we can destroy the Ring we can destroy him. If he gets hold of it again our only chance to defeat him will be gone.

Sauron doesn't need the Ring to win, he just needs to stop any enemy capable of using it claiming it for himself (or, though this never crossed his mind, destroying it)

That does make sense and fits in with some of the Council speeches. I thank all of you - Morwen, alatar, Quempel and littlemanpoet for making good arguements. Findulias said

Some of us are willing to concede to minor mistakes. But do you really expect any of us people who defend the books so much that you call us 'purists' to concede that the very foundation of the book and incredible story is faulty? That's really asking a lot.

Kind of makes me feel like Homer Simpson and should say "DOH".

I do think that the whole Sauron needs the ring appears at first to be a contradiction... but you have all explained that to me to my satisfaction. I guess he really did not need it and that was the weakness in my position.

I am learning that sometimes looking at this stuff is like somebody from the 19th century explaining why a huge battleship made of metal and concrete could never float. The more you learn, the more it makes sense. Thanks to all.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I am learning that sometimes looking at this stuff is like somebody from the 19th century explaining why a huge battleship made of metal and concrete could never float. The more you learn, the more it makes sense. Thanks to all.

What happened? Don't tell me you suddenly believe a laden Dwarf can run 135 miles in 3.5 days?!? My heart can only take so much...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Is that an African Dwarf or a European Dwarf?

[Sauron the White]

The dwarf run all those miles?????

NEVER!!!!!!