The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

When we're talking about magic it becomes more complex - it may take no more magic to shatter a city gate than to break a sword.

I really doubt it takes a hundred-feet long ram the level of Grond to shatter a blade.

Why bother if the WK can just shatter the gate unaided?

I already expounded my arguments on that, with quotes from Tolkien about tyrants' disregard for human costs, the rather scarcity of magic and that using this power may not be worth it for the WK in such conditions.

we're never shown Gandalf doing anything like killing a Balrog before, & we don't look for 'added spiritual power' to explain that

I don't think the situation is comparable. We don't have a previous situation in which Gandalf had reasons to use his full power. Moreover, all over the LotR is the implication that all the good characters are aided in their quest, even in the most dire situations, against unimaginable odds. [And I also add that even the appendices mention that the istari were forbidden to "match Sauron's power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear", thus a second-time reader knows he can expect more from Gandalf the Grey than he shows. But I needn't go that far.]

It may well have take more power to break the sword than the gate.

I am not aware that such a blade is in any way more resistant that a normal blade.

What else did he do in the battle to display this extra power?

A sword in flames is rather impressive, but only because you asked . Never before seen, if I remember correctly.

Originally Posted by Mansun

Was the Balrog coming in for the Ring

That may be so, I have a foggy memory of something similar stated by Tolkien. The ring definitely influences evil creatures (such as the orcs that attacked Isildur - or even the watcher in the water who went straight for Frodo).

As mentioned earlier, the fact that Gandalf the Grey was able to break the flaming sword of the Balrog was very significant in terms of power, particularly as the sword was blessed with spell fire & other demonic spells.

I am not aware that the balrog's sword had those; it was pretty much a contest between blades, sort of speaking. I don't see any reason why Gandalf put forth magic in that particular episode.

[obloquy]

Your arguments are foolish and desperate, Raynor, and I am done dignifying them with detailed responses.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Your arguments are foolish and desperate, Raynor, and I am done dignifying them with detailed responses.

Thanks for your kind words.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am not aware that the balrog's sword had those; it was pretty much a contest between blades, sort of speaking. I don't see any reason why Gandalf put forth magic in that particular episode.

The sword the Balrog used was flamed by his own power - a power fueled by spells & sorcery like which Gandalf had not experienced before in his wildest dreams, not even when faced by the Nine Nazgul. Do not try & pretend that a flaming sword is not one with flame due to some supernatural power.



But just look at what Wikipedia has to say of Balrogs:-

A Balrog is a demon from J. R. R. Tolkien's Arda legendarium. A Balrog (Sindarin for "Demon of Might"; the Quenya form is Valarauko) is a tall, menacing being in the shape of a man, having control of both fire and shadow. One was noted to wield both a flaming sword and fiery whip of many thongs.

The Balrog induces great terror in friends and foes alike and can shroud itself in darkness and shadow. It can only be defeated by some person or thing of equal power, and amongst its own evil allies is rivalled only in its capacity for ferocity and destruction by the dragons, but the Balrogs are more powerful than dragons.[1]

According to The Silmarillion the Balrogs were originally Maiar, of the same order as Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf.

Can the enhanced Witch King match such a foe? It appears not, since he would need to be at least in equal power to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf & the Balrog of Morgoth to be so. This ends the debate once & for all - Gandalf, Balrogs, Saurman, Sauron are all essentially closely matched, that we know. The Witch King, however powerful a sorcerer, cannot fall into this supernatural category & must therefore be deemed a weaker opponent. The Witch King cannot kill a Maiar without being of equal power at least.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The sword the Balrog used was flamed by his own power - a power fueled by spells & sorcery like whcih Gandalf had not experienced before in his wildest dreams, not even when faced by the Nine Nazgul. Do not try & pretend that a flaming sword is not one with flame due to some supernatural power.

Again, there is no clue regarding just how much, if at all, the balrog's blade was enhanced.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Again, there is no clue regarding just how much, if at all, the balrog's blade was enhanced.

Enhanced enough to be able to have a good chance of taking care of Gandalf. Or why bother provoking him when he can quite easily go back to sleep unharmed?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Enhanced enough to be able to have a good chance of taking care of Gandalf.

We have no evidence that the balrog relied on the blade to take care of Gandalf.

Or why bother provoking him when he can quite easily go back to sleep unharmed?

The ring for example, as you mentioned. Also, the fellowship would have been quite happy to just get away safely, regardless how many times they were provoked. They have little if any incentive in starting a fight.

Originally Posted by Raynor

We have no evidence that the balrog relied on the blade to take care of Gandalf.
The ring for example, as you mentioned. Also, the fellowship would have been quite happy to just get away safely, regardless how many times they were provoked. They have little if any incentive in starting a fight.

The Balrog must show his power though some means, & it seems his chief weapon was his blade. A flaming sword, in biblical terms, symbolises supernatural power. Look it up on wikipedia.

Also, we have no evidence that the Balrog was after the Ring. He could have just been angry at being awaken, plus he would have been aware (eventually) that Gandalf also was a Maiar & therefore one of the few foes who could potentially defeat him.

Whatever opinion one has, the Balrog can be seen as a truly great opponent with all the hallmarks of a demonic god-like creature of ancient legend which even heroes of modern times dare not name. The Balrog effectively made the LOTR what it is today.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

it seems his chief weapon was his blade

Their chief weapon is fear.

A flaming sword, in biblical terms, symbolises supernatural power.

Though it may symbolise that, I don't see why it is the case here. Why do you keep insisting on this, if you have no evidence?

Look it up on wikipedia.

We are not discussing the bible and its symbols or wikipedia.

Also, we have no evidence that the Balrog was after the Ring. He could have just been angry at being awaken, plus he would have been aware (eventually) that Gandalf also was a Maiar & therefore one of the few foes who could potentially defeat him.

Indeed, we have no evidence at all of whatsoever, regarding the blade or his motivations. Therefore, no valid argument can be made.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Look it up on wikipedia.

Not the most reliable site on which to base your argument

Originally Posted by Mansun

Can the enhanced Witch King match such a foe? It appears not, since he would need to be at least in equal power to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf & the Balrog of Morgoth to be so. This ends the debate once & for all - Gandalf, Balrogs, Saurman, Sauron are all essentially closely matched, that we know. The Witch King, however powerful a sorcerer, cannot fall into this supernatural category & must therefore be deemed a weaker opponent. The Witch King cannot kill a Maiar without being of equal power at least.

This brings us back to the old predicament of Glorfindel and the Balrog, of Ecthelion and Gothmog and of Fingolfin and Melkor.

Was Ecthelion on par with Gothmog, the servant of Morgoth and son of Morgoth? No, he was just a powerful Elf with particularly good fighting capabilities - doubtless he had this "power" but i would argue against it being equal to the Maija's.

Tolkien has surprised us enough with apparently "weaker" foes rising to the challenge so to speak. So to say that the Witch King is inadequate because he must be 'atleast in equal power' and he 'must therefore be deemed a weaker opponant', is in my view a little narrow minded (not personally i'm sure). Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Fingolfin each used a form of weapon to inflict damage on their foe. To say that the Balrogs were not as before, not of Maija or whatever is diverted by Fingolfins battle with Melkor, where he succeeds in frightening him and issuing him with a nice scar.

The Witch King, whom i am sure would fail to a Balrog (personally) cannot be counted out. We do not know how it would have gone, we can only bear educated guesses. After analyzing Tolkiens history of upsets it would be folly to just disregard someone because of their status in the world.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Can the enhanced Witch King match such a foe? It appears not, since he would need to be at least in equal power to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf & the Balrog of Morgoth to be so. This ends the debate once & for all - Gandalf, Balrogs, Saurman, Sauron are all essentially closely matched, that we know. The Witch King, however powerful a sorcerer, cannot fall into this supernatural category & must therefore be deemed a weaker opponent. The Witch King cannot kill a Maiar without being of equal power at least.

Within your rigid hierarchy, how then do you explain both Glorfindel and Ecthelion killing a Balrog? Certain even a high Elf is considered below a Maia.

And does this mean that Radagast could defeat the Witch King? After all, he is a Maia.

In any case, the Witch King does not follow strictly the Middle Earth hierarchy (even if it were true, which it evidently is not), since he holds one of the Nine Rings and thus gets some of his power directly from Sauron. So one cannot simply describe his power as that of a man, or even as a sorcerer of old...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Within your rigid hierarchy, how then do you explain both Glorfindel and Ecthelion killing a Balrog? Certain even a high Elf is considered below a Maia.

And does this mean that Radagast could defeat the Witch King? After all, he is a Maia.

In any case, the Witch King does not follow strictly the Middle Earth hierarchy (even if it were true, which it evidently is not), since he holds one of the Nine Rings and thus gets some of his power directly from Sauron. So one cannot simply describe his power as that of a man, or even as a sorcerer of old...

The hierarchy is pretty rigid, and generally holds, but as I said above, the more powerful Eldar may overlap with the lesser Maiar. Glorfindel in particular, though not the greatest of the Eldar, is said to be on par with the Maiar. Certainly this holds true also for Cirdan, Luthien, Galadriel, Ecthelion, Gil-galad, Elrond, Feanor, Fingolfin, Thingol, and others.

The greatest of the Atani perhaps overlap the least of the Eldar similarly, but the Witch-King is not one of the greatest of the Atani. He does not actually hold a ring of power, Sauron keeps them. He may have been a powerful Man before his corruption, and was perhaps more powerful afterward, but we know that he still fears Glorfindel, Aragorn, and even Boromir I (see appendix).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The hierarchy is pretty rigid, and generally holds, but as I said above, the more powerful Eldar may overlap with the lesser Maiar. Glorfindel in particular, though not the greatest of the Eldar, is said to be on par with the Maiar. Certainly this holds true also for Cirdan, Luthien, Galadriel, Ecthelion, Gil-galad, Elrond, Feanor, Fingolfin, Thingol, and others.

The greatest of the Atani perhaps overlap the least of the Eldar similarly, but the Witch-King is not one of the greatest of the Atani. He does not actually hold a ring of power, Sauron keeps them. He may have been a powerful Man before his corruption, and was perhaps more powerful afterward, but we know that he still fears Glorfindel, Aragorn, and even Boromir I (see appendix).

Well, at least this is a more reasonable set of statements. I was reacting to the blanket statements of Mansun above.

I believe both Raynor and I have now said that the Balrog would probably triumph in a match up with the Witch King.

So the issue is mainly whether the power of the Witch King was augmented, or in fact, what the nature of that power is. I personally believe that this power is fluid and perhaps hard to define (harder than, say, the power of the Balrog) because so much of the power emanates from Sauron. This explains in part to me the very different behavior of the Nazgul (and Witch King) when faced with various foes.

[obloquy]

Well, since there's no evidence to support that Sauron chose the Witch-King for special gifts, such as a prime ring (or even that there was a prime ring), it stands to reason that the power received from the nine rings is primarily that irrational fear that all the Ulairi share. It also stands to reason that those things the Witch-King excels the others in ("more powerful in all ways") are things he brought to the table himself. He was a sorcerer and, evidently, a warlord before his corruption. It is therefore not necessary to assume that he received any abilities as a sorcerer--aside from further training, perhaps--from Sauron or from his ring since he is already identified as a practicer of those arts.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Well, since there's no evidence to support that Sauron chose the Witch-King for special gifts, such as a prime ring (or even that there was a prime ring), it stands to reason that the power received from the nine rings is primarily that irrational fear that all the Ulairi share. It also stands to reason that those things the Witch-King excels the others in ("more powerful in all ways") are things he brought to the table himself. He was a sorcerer and, evidently, a warlord before his corruption. It is therefore not necessary to assume that he received any abilities as a sorcerer--aside from further training, perhaps--from Sauron or from his ring since he is already identified as a practicer of those arts.

Well, you lost me there. I can see that the Witch King is clearly building on whatever he was previously--presumably the Rings themselves do not convey the extra power that the Witch King has versus the other Nazgul. But it seems quite a stretch to then conclude that he gained little further from his connection with Sauron. Where is your evidence that this is the case? I myself do not find it logical at all...