Saruman for or against Sauron?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

He may have thought the same as Sauron, that the Ring Bearer was on his wasy to Minas Tirith. But who then had the strength & power to wield it there? Denethor?

As Gandalf said:

Originally Posted by The last debate

For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc?

Therefore, Aragorn would be at least one additional choice. The others are a matter of speculation.

Originally Posted by Raynor

As Gandalf said:

Therefore, Aragorn would be at least one additional choice. The others are a matter of speculation.

Debatable still. Aragorn does not have the great power of Gandalf, even if he has a strong will. Denethor would have been a more realistic thought in the mind of the enemy, given that he was the Lord of Minas Tirith at the time of the war.

The point I was making was the fact that Saruman may have thought the Fellowship were upto something else, since they had refused to wield the Ring in the past. Saruman new the minds of the Wise better than many, unlike Sauron.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Aragorn does not have the great power of Gandalf, even if he has a strong will.

True, but that didn't seem to matter much to Gandalf in the quote above.

Denethor would have been a more realistic thought in the mind of the enemy, given that he was the Lord of Minas Tirith at the time of the war.

However, he was much weakened and affected by his contest with Sauron. I expect that Saruman would find out about that one way or the other - spies, rumors, Sauron himself, the palantir.

Originally Posted by Raynor

True, but that didn't seem to matter much to Gandalf in the quote above.

However, he was much weakened and affected by his contest with Sauron. I expect that Saruman would find out about that one way or the other - spies, rumors, Sauron himself, the palantir.

As for your first point, it did matter to Lady Galadriel. Secondly, the LOTR clearly states that Denethor was most displeased with the Ring going to Mordor. He wanted it in Minas Tirith, to be used only at the uttermost end of need. So there is not a case to say he was too weak or had no desire to wield the Ring. The only question in his mind was, who should wield it?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

As for your first point, it did matter to Lady Galadriel.

What do you mean?

Secondly, the LOTR clearly states that Denethor was most displeased with the Ring going to Mordor. He wanted it in Minas Tirith, to be used only at the uttermost end of need. So there is not a case to say he was too weak or had no desire to wield the Ring.

If we are speculating what Saruman thought about the likely wielder of the ring, then I believe that, in his eyes, the fact that Denethor wanted it could not overcome the negative effects of his contest with Sauron. However, I also believe we are taking really long shots here.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What do you mean?

Recall the words of Galadriel to Frodo on the wielding of the Ring. One who desires to wield it will only succeed by having a great power of their own, & more besides.

The Ring was Denethor's last hope of success against Sauron. To think he had already been defeated before even learning of the fate of the Ring Bearer going to Mordor is quite astonishing to claim. He sent Boromir to Rivendell in the hope he may gain support from the Wise to use the Ring in Minas Tirith, did he not?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

One who desires to wield it will only succeed by having a great power of their own, & more besides.

Her exact words are:

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel

Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor?

Why do you think this would exclude Aragorn?

To think he had already been defeated before even learning of the fate of the going to Mordor is quite astonishing to claim.

Can you rephrase that?

[Nazgûl-king]

My first comment here!

I think that Saurman thought he could become Sauron, if he could get the Ring, and that perhaps he joined with Sauron in the hopes that he might get information that would be of use to him. I think Saruman intended to use his allegiance with Sauron as a cover for his true intensions of trying to get the Ring. I also think that in the films they should have shown Saurman as more of his own force rather then just a poppet of Sauron.