The Balrog vs The Witch King

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

So that prior physical raiment is equivalent to being discarnate? It's a stretch that I have problems agreeing with.

It's not a stretch at all. Ealar who are capable of changing shape are obviously not bound to one physical shape, and are therefore still fundamentally discarnate. They could drop the shape altogether and function just fine as spirits, as they were originally created. Perhaps there are degrees of incarnation, where shapechanging is still possible but not total reversion to incorporeal existence, but this is speculation. In Sauron's case, he can still change his appearance until his "death" in Numenor, after which he is bound to one specific shape. This is incarnation.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Nice. First it is unqualified (with which I agree), now, it equals general power level. Well.... maybe. Greatest of the eldar remains an unqualified label and using it one way or the other, just because it suits in one particular debate, is an argument "from ignorance", a fallacy. We don't know what exactly Tolkien meant by it, so we can't use it as we see fit.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. I am using the expression exactly as I have always used it, and exactly as I understand it to be used by Tolkien. You're the one who called it "general" in your previous post. Are you saying it does not refer to power level? Because the term definitely does sometimes, and if it remains unqualified, we have to assume Tolkien means the same thing when using it in reference to Galadriel as he meant when he used it to describe Sauron's status among Morgoth's servants. In both cases it is unqualified, so in both cases its meaning must be considered all-inclusive.

Originally Posted by Raynor

If Gandalf's words are true, then his state was likely temporary and the WK would have been redressed eventually.

It's debatable. The point, however, is that Sauron is unaffected by the Witch-King's death (though perhaps he felt it), and therefore the relationship between the two is obviously not the same as Sauron's connection to his Ring.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Ealar who are capable of changing shape are obviously not bound to one physical shape, and are therefore still fundamentally discarnate.

That may be so. In my opinion, we cannot equate the potential to return to a purely spirit state with the state itself. Various abilities of the ealar, such as transmission of thought, are affected when assuming shapes.

In both cases it is unqualified, so in both cases its meaning must be considered all-inclusive.

I am not completely sure what you mean by all-inclusive. Anyway, the problem with "greatest" is that it may include factors which do not relate to power and which might compensate for any difference between one of the greatest's power and Glorfindel's. Also, Glorfindel not being mentioned among the greatest may simply be due to the fact that he may have returned too late to Middle Earth (1200 SA, 1600 SA - or in the TA), to be included there, even though he may have qualified from a power point of view.

The point, however, is that Sauron is unaffected by the Witch-King's death (though perhaps he felt it), and therefore the relationship between the two is obviously not the same as Sauron's connection to his Ring.

I believe that the WK's "resilience" is a sufficient motivation for Sauron to invest in him, in the light of your initial argument. Also, the effect on Sauron may have occurred during the transfer of power (which I believe would be somewhat irreversible, unlike with the ring), which would explain why the WK's fall left Sauron unaffected at that time.