Split Personality? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-15-2007, 05:52 AM

Lincoln unquestionably transgressed the Constitution by unilaterally suspending habeas- a right the Constitution reserves to Congress in time of war, rebellion, or national emergency. *Had* Congress done so at Lincoln's request then it would have been both constitutional and, in the looser sense, democratic.

Technically you are correct as to the republic/democracy distinction- but if you're going to insist on that point than there is no 'democratic' government in the world, unless you can find one which operates entirely by plebiscite without an elected representative body. For practical purposes 'democracy' has come to be in everyday usage a synonym for 'elective republic.' By that standard the Selective Service Act was democratic. If you're going to insist that 'democracy' applies only to plebiscite, well, then, there is not a single democratic act or law in all of the United States government.

I think what you're trying to say is that coercion is inherently undemocratic- but if that were true, than the proudest achievment of the Progressives, the Income Tax, would be undemocratic. There the power of the State, under threat of prison, forces me to cough up a third of my income every year. No plebiscite was ever taken on that one, either- initiative and referendum do not exist at the Federal level. And I assure you the IRS is no more a democracy than the military. Nor is prison- which is where people go who transgress laws passed by Congress.

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-15-2007, 05:56 AM

I should add that there is nothing inherently democratic about habeas corpus. Indeed, the Bill of Rights is profoundly anti-democratic, in that it places constraints on the will of the majority. In a 'pure' democracy, the faction with the largest number of votes would be perfectly free to ban whatever speech or religious practice or minority group is didn't like.

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 10-15-2007, 07:15 AM

Let's get the thread back onto Tolkien, please.

Thanks.

Sauron the White · 10-15-2007, 09:57 AM

Absolutely... lets get back on Tolkien topics. I defense of WCH and myself, JRRT did fight in the Great War to Save Democracy.....

but the point is taken and accepted.

10-15-2007, 05:52 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Lincoln unquestionably transgressed the Constitution by unilaterally suspending habeas- a right the Constitution reserves to Congress in time of war, rebellion, or national emergency. Had Congress done so at Lincoln's request then it would have been both constitutional and, in the looser sense, democratic. Technically you are correct as to the republic/democracy distinction- but if you're going to insist on that point than there is no 'democratic' government in the world, unless you can find one which operates entirely by plebiscite without an elected representative body. For practical purposes 'democracy' has come to be in everyday usage a synonym for 'elective republic.' By that standard the Selective Service Act was democratic. If you're going to insist that 'democracy' applies only to plebiscite, well, then, there is not a single democratic act or law in all of the United States government. I think what you're trying to say is that coercion is inherently undemocratic- but if that were true, than the proudest achievment of the Progressives, the Income Tax, would be undemocratic. There the power of the State, under threat of prison, forces me to cough up a third of my income every year. No plebiscite was ever taken on that one, either- initiative and referendum do not exist at the Federal level. And I assure you the IRS is no more a democracy than the military. Nor is prison- which is where people go who transgress laws passed by Congress. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-15-2007, 05:56 AM	#2
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	I should add that there is nothing inherently democratic about habeas corpus. Indeed, the Bill of Rights is profoundly anti-democratic, in that it places constraints on the will of the majority. In a 'pure' democracy, the faction with the largest number of votes would be perfectly free to ban whatever speech or religious practice or minority group is didn't like. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-15-2007, 07:15 AM	#3
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	Let's get the thread back onto Tolkien, please. Thanks. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

10-15-2007, 09:57 AM	#4
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Absolutely... lets get back on Tolkien topics. I defense of WCH and myself, JRRT did fight in the Great War to Save Democracy..... but the point is taken and accepted.