Serving animals in HOBBIT film - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Meriadoc1961 · 10-24-2007, 11:41 AM

TheGreatElvenWarrior wrote:

"Hmmm... that is a good point, but I didn't think of Tom as a reincarnation of Iluvatar, he gives hope to the Hobbits though. Especially when they got trapped by the Barrow-wight, and he also saved them... now I wouldn't want to be trapped in a plane for a flight that has some long hours with Frodo, but not with Bombadil."

The reason I wrote that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar (Eru) is because of the exchange Frodo has with Tom:

"Who are you, Master?" he asked

"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Additionally, this exchange took place between Frodo and Goldberry which also influenced my opinion that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar:

"Fair lady!" said Frodo again after a while. "Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil??

"He is," said Goldberry. staying her swift movements and smiling.

Later on she continues by saying, "Tom Bombadil is the Master."

"He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master."

Now compare this to a conversation that Moses had with God in Exodus 3:13-15. Tolkien was heavily influenced by the Bible as he was a Catholic:

And Moses said unto God, "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me unto you'; and they shall say to me, 'What is His name? What shall I say unto them?'

And God said unto Moses, "I AM THAT I AM": and He said, "Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me unto you.'"

And God said moreover unto Moses, "Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, 'Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me unto you': this is My name forever, and this is My memorial unto all generations."

So we have God telling Moses, "I AM THAT I AM." Goldberry says in reference to Tom, "He is."

Merry

Sauron the White · 10-24-2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Tolkien was heavily influenced by the Bible as he was a Catholic:

As someone born and raised Catholic complete with 12 years in a Catholic school, I can tell you that of all the Christian faiths the Catholic Church depends less on the Bible than most other faiths. It means far more to various Protestant sects.

Of course, Tokien could have been very heavy on the Bible. Perhaps someone does know this and can set it straight. I just wanted to correct the impression that because he was a Catholic it would make sense that he was then heavilly influenced by the Bible. The two do not necessarily go together.

Meriadoc1961 · 10-24-2007, 12:18 PM

Sauron the White,

That was a very honest admission. I thank you for your forthrightness.

Tolkien was very much responsible for converting his good friend, C. S. Lewis, out of atheism, as they met weekly with other men at a local pub. This is part of my reasoning that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar, just as I see Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo all as messiah figures, but that should probably be discussed in another thread.

Merry

davem · 10-24-2007, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Perhaps someone does know this and can set it straight. I just wanted to correct the impression that because he was a Catholic it would make sense that he was then heavilly influenced by the Bible. The two do not necessarily go together.

If you're looking for literary influences I'd say the Bible is a long way down the list.

Beowulf, The Eddas, The Kalevala, The Mabinogion, the Icelandic Sagas, the works of William Morris & fairy stories generally were all far greater influences.

10-24-2007, 11:41 AM	#1
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	TheGreatElvenWarrior wrote: "Hmmm... that is a good point, but I didn't think of Tom as a reincarnation of Iluvatar, he gives hope to the Hobbits though. Especially when they got trapped by the Barrow-wight, and he also saved them... now I wouldn't want to be trapped in a plane for a flight that has some long hours with Frodo, but not with Bombadil." The reason I wrote that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar (Eru) is because of the exchange Frodo has with Tom: "Who are you, Master?" he asked "Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside." Additionally, this exchange took place between Frodo and Goldberry which also influenced my opinion that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar: "Fair lady!" said Frodo again after a while. "Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil?? "He is," said Goldberry. staying her swift movements and smiling. Later on she continues by saying, "Tom Bombadil is the Master." "He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master." Now compare this to a conversation that Moses had with God in Exodus 3:13-15. Tolkien was heavily influenced by the Bible as he was a Catholic: And Moses said unto God, "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me unto you'; and they shall say to me, 'What is His name? What shall I say unto them?' And God said unto Moses, "I AM THAT I AM": and He said, "Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me unto you.'" And God said moreover unto Moses, "Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, 'Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me unto you': this is My name forever, and this is My memorial unto all generations." So we have God telling Moses, "I AM THAT I AM." Goldberry says in reference to Tom, "He is." Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!" Last edited by Meriadoc1961; 10-24-2007 at 05:15 PM.

10-24-2007, 12:18 PM	#3
Meriadoc1961 Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	Sauron the White, That was a very honest admission. I thank you for your forthrightness. Tolkien was very much responsible for converting his good friend, C. S. Lewis, out of atheism, as they met weekly with other men at a local pub. This is part of my reasoning that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar, just as I see Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo all as messiah figures, but that should probably be discussed in another thread. Merry __________________ "If I yawn again, I shall split at the ears!"