Why Can't Movies Be Like Books?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Could you please provide some evidence of this "former greatness". As someone who has studied and even taught some history courses, I am unaware of such Golden Ages that make them markedly different than our own times. And please give me actual evidence of the real world and not some literary platitudes found in fiction books which idealize and romanticize a life which did not exist except for a very small number of lucky people.

And I do not have the slightest idea what that has to do with JRRT, Middle-earth, the Jackson adaptions of LOTR or anything else on topic. But perhaps you could relate it all for me.

What does this have to do with Tolkien? Everything! Whatever you or I believe, *Tolkien* was firmly convinced that human history is the 'long defeat.' He was defiantly heretical toward the Church of Progress, and was convinced that Man was in his own day becoming smaller and meaner, concerned with nothing beyond material comfort and convenience, and a fixation on 'democracy' as a surrogate for freedom. Although he was of course aware of the downside of the Middle Ages, he nonetheless believed that people of that day aspired to loftier things than their decadent descendants.

He was also aware, being something of an expert, that the average man in medieval England was a far cry from the filthy, famished, oppressed serf beloved of Victorian and then Marx-influenced historians, both of whom had a vested interest in creating a "look how far we've come" narrative. From Tolkien's viewpoint, 'progress' meant Birmingham's Satanic mills and the industrialised carnage of the Western Front and mushroom clouds over Japan. Accordingly, he tried (with indifferent success) to revive something of the old Northern Spirit he loved, and hoped would revive his dying England. I'm sure he wished he could blow Merry's Horn of Rohan and sweep Sarumanism away.

You may disagree with his opinions. But if one is to adapt *Tolkien*, whether in film or any other medium, then one should be attuned to what he was all about. The idea of ameliorating his message to appeal to 'modern' prejudice would be anathema to him.

[Sauron the White]

WCH- thank you for that information. I despised reading books in my English courses only to be told by the profs that what I thought I read was not really what the author wrote. They would then tell you all about the authors life, the authors philosophy, the trials and tribulations the author went through, the social and political history of the times he was writing in and writing about, and that was all before the psycho babbly mumbo jumbo analysis was introduced telling you that a cigar was not really a cigar at all.

Soon tiring of all these books and authors with their hidden messages, meanings, and truths I just said "forget about it". I found books I wanted to read and enjoyed the tales for what they were.

I much prefer to be guided by the great philosopher Robert DeNiro in the classic work THE DEERHUNTER.

"This is this. This isn't something else. This is this."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, that could be said of Faramir, or Aragorn: he is he. He isn't someone else. He is he. By DeNiro's Law, it would be incumbent upon an adaptation to present the characters as Tolkien wrote them, not substitute the adaptor's preferences.

[Sauron the White]

WCH - I think you greatly misunderstand DeNiro's statement. This is this. This is not something else. This is this.

A book is a book.
A film is a film.

THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a book.
THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a series of movies.

The book is not the movies.
The movies are not the book.

To apply criteria from one to the other is folly and a violation of the reality of each.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

WCH - I think you greatly misunderstand DeNiro's statement. This is this. This is not something else. This is this.

A book is a book.
A film is a film.

THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a book.
THE LORD OF THE RINGS is a series of movies.

The book is not the movies.
The movies are not the book.
.

Yes, but. That being the case one should not use books as raw material for film. If the two media are so totally different that any book 'adapted' for the screen will end up a horse of a totally different colour then there is no point buying the rights, no point trying to make a movie of any book at all. Jackson should simply have written an original script for a fantasy movie.

What you're arguing is that the LotR movies, because they are movies, cannot be the Lord of the Rings by JRR Tolkien - however hard the director & his team try to make it into that.

Yet Jackson & his team did try & tell Tolkien's story - he carried a copy of LotR around with him. The artists & designers drew on Tolkien's descriptions - even occasionally (when their own 'talent' failed them) using his dialogue. Jackson repeatedly stated that he was trying to remain faithful to Tolkien. According to you this was a complete waste of time on his part, as, however hard he tried, he could never have succeeded.

[Sauron the White]

from davem

Yes, but. That being the case one should not use books as raw material for film.

Sounds like your dispute is with JRRTolkien and not Peter Jackson since JRRT authorized and licensed his books for just that purpose.

Or another way to look at it that an orange is an orange with all the properties of an orange. However an orange can be turned into juice. It is now something else. An orange is an orange while orange juice is orange juice. Does that mean that an orange should never be turned into orange juice?

One should not drink orange juice and complain that it does not have the texture or consistency or an orange because it is something else with its own texture and consistency.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

One should not drink orange juice and complain that it does not have the texture or consistency or an orange because it is something else with its own texture and consistency.

One can criticise the quality of the orange juice, particularly if it was made from the highest quality fruit, but tastes like its been through a dead cat.