Invisibility and Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

HammerTime · 12-24-2002, 02:38 AM

This may seem like a stupid and basic question (a guess thats why its in novices and newcomers) but I was wondering...

Why, when Sauron puts on the ring why doesn't he become invisible like Frodo, Bilbo and Gollum?

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-24-2002, 02:45 AM

Do you mean in the movie? Because I'm not sure if he really wasn't invisible when he wore it. I always wondered that myself, but I don't recall Tolkien saying he wasn't invisible. Maybe Tolkien just went around the whole issue.

HammerTime · 12-24-2002, 02:50 AM

Hmmmmm. I mean in the movie and the book. If he was invisible how could Isildur see him to attack him and how would he have known which finger to cut off?

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-24-2002, 03:23 AM

Good question. Maybe it was just luck, or maybe Isildir could 'sense' it. If Isildur had sensed Sauron, maybe he knew the general area and got somewhat lucky. Or here's another possiblility; maybe it was destiny. I really don't believe in destiny, but it was Tolkien's work and maybe he did, or maybe Tolkien just wanted to put it like that.

As for the movies, I think PJ should not have showed Sauron. Since this is not the movies section, I really won't get into that (and I'm too tired anyways).

Iargwath · 12-24-2002, 03:30 AM

I dont think Sauron is supposed to be invisibe when he wears the ring. Isnt the source of invisibility a force that draws one to Sauron? Since Sauron is the forger of the ring, he was able to revolutionize into many forms with the power of the ring. So it is voluntary that he wouldnt be invisible with the ring on. Futhermore Sauron's power was attatched to the ring; and without it he would remain a shadow...

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-24-2002, 03:40 AM

Could you explain that again? It's...er...well...sort of confusing.

Iargwath · 12-24-2002, 03:50 AM

Hehe ok then [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] As u may already be aware of, Sauron was able to change into many forms with the power of the ring. Forms meaning he wouldnt be invisible when he had the ring on. Furthermore Sauron's power was attatched to the ring, and without it he would remain a shadow (i thought the last bit was self explanatory)
Oh and i always thought that the invisibility (when one puts the ring on) is a force or a way that Sauron draws the ring back to him...

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ]

obloquy · 12-24-2002, 04:23 AM

Sauron created the Ring with himself as the only intended bearer. The Ring was imbued with the will and power to enslave its bearer, and I believe the invisibility it bestowed was a part of that -- pulling the bearer into the wraith world, like the Nazgul's rings had done to them. The invisibility of the Ring was not a good invisibility, in that it was not harmless: it was a shifting of the wearer into the wraith world. With the exceptions of Sauron and other beings with a strong enough will to possess the Ring rather than be possessed by It, I believe the One Ring would have had the same effect on its bearer as those rings given to Men. And once utterly enslaved by the One Ring, the bearer would have brought it to Sauron, and then died when he was separated from it. The Ring's bearer becoming invisible was, I believe, an indication that the bearer's will was weaker than that of the Ring.

Iargwath · 12-24-2002, 04:27 AM

Well put obloquy...

Manwe Sulimo · 12-24-2002, 08:56 AM

Yeah, you have to remember the quote about Bombadil. "Say not that he had power over the Ring; say rather that the Ring had no power over him." Well put, obloquy.

Dorathain_Flamesword · 12-24-2002, 10:41 AM

Exactly. Even in the movie Aragorn says, "The Ring answers to Sauron alone, it has no other master." And thus, since Frodo, Sam or Gollum aren't the Ring's masters, it has power over them, as Tom Bombadil says.

Meela · 12-24-2002, 01:14 PM

i havent fully read all the posts, so i dont know whats been said, but i thought that maybe sauron was like the wraiths: invisible, but when by putting on clothing can be seen, if u know what i mean... like, the wraiths were invisible, but the cloaks showed them up

lore_master · 12-24-2002, 01:58 PM

Sauron was a mair. Mair have no distint, visible forms. before he had forged the ring, he could change his shape. but when he put it on however, his true identity was clear to all. So the ring made him visible to us. but it made everyone else, since they were not sauron invisible

12-24-2002, 03:01 PM

It`s not an answer to the topic. but some of you wondered about saurons shape. for that is to say he could choose the one he liked till the fall of numenor. after this he could not "wear" a pleasing one.
but for the rest i agree. he is the master of the ring, it has no power over him as of others. but his fate is bound to it.

RiderOfRohan · 01-01-2003, 05:13 PM

In FOTR didn't Galadriel say that what you could do with the rings depended on the ring and how strong your mind and will are???

Barodir · 01-01-2003, 05:24 PM

Here's a thoery I just thought of:

Maybe, Sauron did turn invisible, but then put on some sort of magic armor, making him visible. This would explain why he looks like the tin man in the movies [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

This is just a stupid theory I thought of in 2 seconds, and should not be taken seriously. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lindril Arvilya · 01-02-2003, 01:12 PM

Did Bombadil not put on the ring? Did he disappear? No, good old Tom stayed visible. Perhaps, (assumng Bombadil is a Maiar, anyhow he has a lot of power) here's a classic example of "you must have power to weild power". (Oh, I like that, I should remember it... I just made it up!) Others can wear it, but it will be controlling them, and to show that they actually lose their visual forms. Those who have the power to DO something with it (whether they choose to or otherwise) have some sort of control over it, and so they keep their forms.

Legolas · 01-02-2003, 06:38 PM

Simply put, Sauron controlled the Ring.

When others bore it, it controlled them.

Iargwath · 01-05-2003, 02:39 AM

Thank you Legalos...a long story cut short [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

12-24-2002, 02:38 AM	#1
HammerTime Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia... yes down-under cringes Posts: 24	Invisibility and Sauron This may seem like a stupid and basic question (a guess thats why its in novices and newcomers) but I was wondering... Why, when Sauron puts on the ring why doesn't he become invisible like Frodo, Bilbo and Gollum? __________________ Truth! Justice! Freedom! And a Hard-boiled Egg!

12-24-2002, 02:45 AM	#2
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Do you mean in the movie? Because I'm not sure if he really wasn't invisible when he wore it. I always wondered that myself, but I don't recall Tolkien saying he wasn't invisible. Maybe Tolkien just went around the whole issue. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-24-2002, 02:50 AM	#3
HammerTime Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia... yes down-under cringes Posts: 24	Hmmmmm. I mean in the movie and the book. If he was invisible how could Isildur see him to attack him and how would he have known which finger to cut off? __________________ Truth! Justice! Freedom! And a Hard-boiled Egg!

12-24-2002, 03:23 AM	#4
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Good question. Maybe it was just luck, or maybe Isildir could 'sense' it. If Isildur had sensed Sauron, maybe he knew the general area and got somewhat lucky. Or here's another possiblility; maybe it was destiny. I really don't believe in destiny, but it was Tolkien's work and maybe he did, or maybe Tolkien just wanted to put it like that. As for the movies, I think PJ should not have showed Sauron. Since this is not the movies section, I really won't get into that (and I'm too tired anyways). __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-24-2002, 03:30 AM	#5
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	I dont think Sauron is supposed to be invisibe when he wears the ring. Isnt the source of invisibility a force that draws one to Sauron? Since Sauron is the forger of the ring, he was able to revolutionize into many forms with the power of the ring. So it is voluntary that he wouldnt be invisible with the ring on. Futhermore Sauron's power was attatched to the ring; and without it he would remain a shadow... [ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ] __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

12-24-2002, 03:40 AM	#6
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Could you explain that again? It's...er...well...sort of confusing. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-24-2002, 03:50 AM	#7
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Hehe ok then [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] As u may already be aware of, Sauron was able to change into many forms with the power of the ring. Forms meaning he wouldnt be invisible when he had the ring on. Furthermore Sauron's power was attatched to the ring, and without it he would remain a shadow (i thought the last bit was self explanatory) Oh and i always thought that the invisibility (when one puts the ring on) is a force or a way that Sauron draws the ring back to him... [ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Iargwath ] __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

12-24-2002, 04:23 AM	#8
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	Sauron created the Ring with himself as the only intended bearer. The Ring was imbued with the will and power to enslave its bearer, and I believe the invisibility it bestowed was a part of that -- pulling the bearer into the wraith world, like the Nazgul's rings had done to them. The invisibility of the Ring was not a good invisibility, in that it was not harmless: it was a shifting of the wearer into the wraith world. With the exceptions of Sauron and other beings with a strong enough will to possess the Ring rather than be possessed by It, I believe the One Ring would have had the same effect on its bearer as those rings given to Men. And once utterly enslaved by the One Ring, the bearer would have brought it to Sauron, and then died when he was separated from it. The Ring's bearer becoming invisible was, I believe, an indication that the bearer's will was weaker than that of the Ring.

12-24-2002, 04:27 AM	#9
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Well put obloquy... __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

12-24-2002, 08:56 AM	#10
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Yeah, you have to remember the quote about Bombadil. "Say not that he had power over the Ring; say rather that the Ring had no power over him." Well put, obloquy. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-24-2002, 10:41 AM	#11
Dorathain_Flamesword Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: U.S. Though Middle-Earth, Ireland or New Zealand would suit me. I am 50% Irish. Posts: 35	Exactly. Even in the movie Aragorn says, "The Ring answers to Sauron alone, it has no other master." And thus, since Frodo, Sam or Gollum aren't the Ring's masters, it has power over them, as Tom Bombadil says. __________________ Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in. "Devilry of Saruman!" cried Aragorn. -Helm's Deep.

12-24-2002, 01:14 PM	#12
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	i havent fully read all the posts, so i dont know whats been said, but i thought that maybe sauron was like the wraiths: invisible, but when by putting on clothing can be seen, if u know what i mean... like, the wraiths were invisible, but the cloaks showed them up __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

12-24-2002, 01:58 PM	#13
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	Sauron was a mair. Mair have no distint, visible forms. before he had forged the ring, he could change his shape. but when he put it on however, his true identity was clear to all. So the ring made him visible to us. but it made everyone else, since they were not sauron invisible __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

12-24-2002, 03:01 PM	#14
lilith Guest Posts: n/a	It`s not an answer to the topic. but some of you wondered about saurons shape. for that is to say he could choose the one he liked till the fall of numenor. after this he could not "wear" a pleasing one. but for the rest i agree. he is the master of the ring, it has no power over him as of others. but his fate is bound to it.

01-01-2003, 05:13 PM	#15
RiderOfRohan Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rohan Posts: 40	In FOTR didn't Galadriel say that what you could do with the rings depended on the ring and how strong your mind and will are??? __________________ I am never late, nor am I early. I arrive exactly when I want to! I feel so uninspired. Mind Altering drugs, that's what Ineed!

01-01-2003, 05:24 PM	#16
Barodir Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Minas Tirith (err...New Jersey) Posts: 46	Here's a thoery I just thought of: Maybe, Sauron did turn invisible, but then put on some sort of magic armor, making him visible. This would explain why he looks like the tin man in the movies [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] This is just a stupid theory I thought of in 2 seconds, and should not be taken seriously. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ " If you don't let me in Frodo, I shall blow your door right down your hole and out through the hill." -Gandalf

01-02-2003, 01:12 PM	#17
Lindril Arvilya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars Posts: 332	Did Bombadil not put on the ring? Did he disappear? No, good old Tom stayed visible. Perhaps, (assumng Bombadil is a Maiar, anyhow he has a lot of power) here's a classic example of "you must have power to weild power". (Oh, I like that, I should remember it... I just made it up!) Others can wear it, but it will be controlling them, and to show that they actually lose their visual forms. Those who have the power to DO something with it (whether they choose to or otherwise) have some sort of control over it, and so they keep their forms. __________________ Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!

01-02-2003, 06:38 PM	#18
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Simply put, Sauron controlled the Ring. When others bore it, it controlled them. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-05-2003, 02:39 AM	#19
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Thank you Legalos...a long story cut short [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum