Finduilas and the Doom of Turin

[Aiwendil]

Yet he and his family would remain cursed

I do not think that Tolkien would suggest that this might not occur, that Turin's "doom" would not find him if he did or refrained from doing anything. Gwindor's prophecy is a late addition to Turin's tale. I do not think that it does anything for the story; the tale is equally tragic if Turin ignores Gwindor's dying wish that he rescue Finduilas without linking the rescue to an undoing of his curse or doom. To the contrary, to suggest that a simple "good deed" could contravene Morgoth's curse is a bit too blithe a solution. And what of the fact that even Turin's attempts to do good are turned awry by the curse? The idea that rescuing Finduilas would avert Turin's doom simply does not fit.

If Tolkien had ever assembled the "final draft" of Narn i Hin Hurin, I suggest that Gwindor's prophecy would not have been included; the earlier iteration of his dying words would have been used. Tolkien was simply too careful an author to let something slip in that seems to run contrary to the themes of that tale.

I disagree.

I think that this "what if" scenario touches on the interesting questions of just what Morgoth's curse was and how it worked. In particular, there's a fate vs. free-will ambiguity in the curse, and I think that your analysis (though well-thought out and perceptive) considers the matter only from one side.

An interesting question to consider as one reads the 'Narn' is to what extent Turin's misfortunes are the result of Morgoth's curse and to what extent they are the result of his own decisions. The interesting thing is that almost every time something goes wrong for Turin, it seems (at least on one level) to be the result of his own actions. The death of Saeros, for example, occurs because of the particular way in which Turin chooses to deal with his anger in that situation. When one considers that incident (or indeed any of Turin's misfortunes) alone, one is hard-pressed to point out exactly where the Curse plays any role at all. It looks like the characters involved are all acting of their own accord and not subject to any external constraints or influence. On the other hand, when one steps back and looks at the whole story, one does undoubtedly see Morgoth's curse at work. Moreover, we know that Turin's life is dominated by the curse because we see Morgoth pronounce it at the beginning of the tale. It may seem difficult to reconcile these two interpretations; I think the solution is that we must not attempt to reconcile them at all, but rather accept that, strange as it may seem, each is true in its own way. This is, I think, similar to the ambiguity between internal and external evil in the One Ring.

So it is also with the issue of rescuing Finduilas. Though Turin's choice not to rescue Finduilas can perhaps be put down to the dragon-spell, he apparently chooses (of his own unconstrained will) to lift his visor and look Glaurung in the eye. Yet, what looks like (and probably is) a free choice on his part turns out, in the long run, to be part of his doom.

I suppose another way of saying this is that somehow Morgoth's curse is manifested through Turin's choices. His failure to rescue Finduilas is, then, part of his curse. It makes little sense, to me anyway, even to posit that, had he rescued Finduilas, his curse would still have found him. For the curse is (in part) that he failed to rescue Finduilas. One can easily imagine a lot of hypothetical worlds where Turin's lot is happier, had he made this choice or that choice differently. The curse is that he didn't make those choices differently.

What does this matter? It may seem that I'm only addressing an issue of semantics, but I think there's more to it than that. It is integral to the effect of the story, I think, not only that Turin make the wrong choices, but that he regret those choices. The tragedy that follows from his failure to rescue Finduilas is, I think, all the more acute if we can see a way in which it might have been averted. If we simply shrug and say "Oh well, things still would somehow have gone badly if he'd rescued her" then we lose some of the tragedy of his failure to do so.

[Mithadan]

I suppose another way of saying this is that somehow Morgoth's curse is manifested through Turin's choices.

This is a truism. Turin (and his family) is the one cursed. The curse affects or colors, to some extent, all his choices. As a mediocre rock band from the 1970s said, if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. One cannot distinguish between Turin's actions and inactions as all are colored by the curse. One can distinguish between the actions of Turin and those of other characters. Turin is cursed, the others are not, yet to the extent they interact with Turin, they get caught up in Morgoth's malice. Beleg does not die because he is cursed. He dies because he is interacting with Turin. This applies to the victims of apparent misfortune throughout the tale, whether it be Brodda, Dorlas, Gwindor, Brandir, etc.

Free will vs. fate. My favorite line on this subject from Tolkien's works is found in the Silmarillion, and it is an early conception found in earlier iterations of the tales. Men "have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the music of the Ainur, which is fate to all things else..." Men, by definition, have free will in the Legendarium. "All things else" are constrained by fate, at least to the extent that the Music of the Ainur addresses their actions and sets forth fragments of their tales. In my view, the Music is not a complete and detailed history. but rather broad brush strokes regarding the world. Thus the waxing and waning of Elves, the nature of Morgoth and his minions, the design of Middle-Earth and more are set in stone Men are free of this influence... except to the extent they deal with those who are bound by fate. So it is indeed perilous for mortal Men to seek out and speak with the Elves and even more so for Men to interact with the Ainur. For Men to interact with Elves, the Ainur, perhaps even Dwarves and Ents, is to subject their actions to the fate directing the decisions and deeds of the other Speaking Races. Morgoth's curse bound Turin with fate, so that even when he exercised free will, his choices were tainted and fated to result in evil.

I suppose another way of saying this is that somehow Morgoth's curse is manifested through Turin's choices. His failure to rescue Finduilas is, then, part of his curse. It makes little sense, to me anyway, even to posit that, had he rescued Finduilas, his curse would still have found him. For the curse is (in part) that he failed to rescue Finduilas. One can easily imagine a lot of hypothetical worlds where Turin's lot is happier, had he made this choice or that choice differently. The curse is that he didn't make those choices differently.

Precisely! So why would Tolkien even bother to suggest that one of Turin's decisions, specifically whether or not to rescue Finduilas, would relieve him of his doom? This would be inconsistent with the nature of the curse itself, which twists Turin's decisions to evil. This is why I think that Tolkien, if he had assembled the hypothetical final version of the Children of Hurin, would not have included the version of Gwindor's last words that was included in the Silmarillion.

[davem]

Well, I suppose this one needs a week's answer or none at all, but in short, I think that the idea that there was a way of escaping the curse is central to the tale & enhances the sense of tragedy - in some way Turin could have escaped.

I'm currently listening to Christopher Lee's absolutely wonderful reading of the tale & two passages struck me:

You say it,' said Morgoth. 'I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of all the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.'
But Húrin answered: 'Do you forget to whom you speak? Such things you spoke long ago to our fathers; but we escaped from your shadow.

Report of the Dragon-helm in the land west of Sirion came swiftly to the ear of Morgoth, and he laughed, for now Túrin was revealed to him again, who had long been lost in the shadows and under the veils of Melian. Yet he began to fear that Túrin would grow to such a power that the curse that he had laid upon him would become void, and he would escape the doom that had been designed for him, or else that he might retreat to Doriath and be lost to his sight again. Now therefore he had a mind to seize Túrin and afflict him even as his father, to torment him and enslave him.

[Aiwendil]

Quote:
I suppose another way of saying this is that somehow Morgoth's curse is manifested through Turin's choices.

This is a truism.

I don't think it is. A curse could, in principle, work by constantly afflicting its sufferer with external evils, bad luck, and such. Turin's curse seems to work differently; it seems that it is not so much a matter of bad things happening to Turin as of Turin choosinig courses of action that have bad ends. I wouldn't say that Turin's decisions are twisted to evil; there doesn't seem to be any twisting involved. Turin simply makes the wrong decisions, and those decisions seem to lead quite naturally to evil.

Consider the question: "What would have happened if Turin had not lifted his visor, had not fallen under Glaurung's spell, and had rescued Finduilas instead of returning to Dor-lomin?" I can think of three plausible answers:

1. Turin would escape the misfortunes that followed from his return to Dor-lomin and would have had a happier life

2. Somehow, events would conspire such that terrible things happen to Turin anyway

3. The question isn't well-defined and cannot be answered.

Now, it seems to me that if one answers with option 2, one must subscribe to the external view of the curse. Someone who prefers the internal view I propose (i.e. the curse is manifested through Turin's choices) would say that it makes no sense to talk about the curse afflicting Turin if he had decided differently; the curse is that he didn't decide differently. Option 3 may be the wisest answer, but of course it merely refuses to answer the question. Option 1, it seems to me, is the one that serves the story best - even perhaps the one that is vital to much of the tragedy that follows. It seems to me that a key part of that tragedy is the fact that, as we're reading it, we can sigh and say: "If only he had rescued Finduilas!" A terrible fate is all the more tragic when one can see a way in which that fate could have been avoided.

Morgoth's curse bound Turin with fate, so that even when he exercised free will, his choices were tainted and fated to result in evil.

From this, it sounds to me like you take the 'external' view of Turin's curse that I described above (and I would venture to guess that your response to my query would be my option 2). I suppose there's no definitive way to answer the internal vs. external question. Certainly, your appeal to what is said of Men in connection with the Music of the Ainur seems to lead one to your view (i.e. the external one) of the curse. On the other hand, I think that a close consideration of the events in the 'Narn' tends to point one toward my internal interpretation. Again, it doesn't seem to me that Turin's choices need much twisting to result in evil. And in most cases, it's hard to imagine how evil would have resulted if Turin's choice had been different.

In the end, though, I suspect that the particular interpretation one chooses is less important than the fact that the work can sustain either. As I've said elsewhere, it seems to me that one of Tolkien's greatest strengths as a writer was his ability to create these multi-faceted stories, in which seemingly contradictory concepts (fate and free will, internal and external evil) are combined.

[Mithadan]

In light of the recent discussion in the Tragic Flaw of the Hurin Family thread, I am bumping this to the top as it discusses similar or parallel issues regarding the nature of Morgoth's curse. In particular, Aiwendil's discussion of whether the curse is internal (driven by Turin's own choices and actions) or external (caused by Morgoth's malevolent influence). Aiwendil suggests that I espouse the external view, and he is partially correct. I believe that Turin's exercises of his free will was influenced by Morgoth's focus and attention so that his choices and actions went awry. However, I do not view the curse as being a "thing" that attached to Turin, his mother and sister causing perpetual bad luck. Rather, I view the curse as requiring a degree of Morgoth's attention (see DaveM's post) to nudge Hurin's family along, though their characters and personalities may have been affected so that even when Morgoth was not paying attention, their actions went astray.

[Inziladun]

It seems to me that while Morgoth steered adverse circumstances into Túrin's way, it was the latter's own choices (mainly an artifact of his pride) that effected the "curse" in the end.

If Túrin had awaited Thingol's judgement for the slaying of Saeros, would he have ever left Doriath? Or, if he had accepted the word of Beleg that all had been forgiven, would Morwen and Nienor have needed to seek him?