Ruin of Doriath - The Shadow falls on Brethil

[Findegil]

Posted by Emrys:

A greater difference is that I have chosen to delete any references which shows that Hurin doesn't know of the death of Glaurung cause for sure, in both versions, he as already visited Brethil. I think that the sentence was inteded to be inserted in a previous version in which Hurin visited brethil after Nargothrond.

True, but as the text stands it is already in the text denied that Húrin could think Glaurung would be still alive. So what we have here is just a thinking on paper, which clears things upfor the reader.

But it is a just critique of our editing and would like to here other about that point.

But what do you think of the passage from about Húrin as an admirer of Felagund?

Respectfully
Findegil

[emrys]

While I think that in my opinion this first part maybe could stand:

Some have said that maybe he knew not that Glaurung was dead, and hoped in his heart distraught to take vengeance on this evil thing - for Morgoth would conceal the death of Glaurung, if he could, both because the loss was a grief to him and a hurt to his pride, and because (from Húrin especially) he would conceal all that was most valiant or successful of Túrin's deeds. Yet this can scarce be so, since the death of Glaurung was so bound up with the death of his children and revelation of their evil case;

This second part seems to suggest that Hùrin has not yet visited Brethil, which doesn't sound right to me: Has Húrin heard tidings of the ravine of Taeglin from wanderers in the wild and not in the time he spent in Brethil?

while the rumour of the assault of Glaurung upon Brethil went far and wide. Certainly Morgoth fenced men in Hithlum, as he was able, and little news came to them of events in other lands; but so soon as Húrin passed southward or met any wanderers in the wild he would hear tidings of the battle in the ravine of Taeglin.

This last part I think could stand as well. (nothing against Felagund)

More likely is it that he was drawn thither to discover news of Túrin; to {Brethil}[Doriath] he would not yet come{, nor to Doriath}.>RD-EX-05.5<WH /And of old /he had been an admirer of Felagund.>

- Emrys -

[Findegil]

From Emrys version:

But now Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he and walked now strongly. Thus passing into the woods south of Taeglin, he gathered the last fugitives of the Woodmen; a kin of the folk of Brethil who, having no homes or lands of their own, despaired now of defending themselves from the growing strength of Morgoth and wished to flee further south.

Coming back to this I must say that after more consideration I think it is wrong to us this sentence for the Woodmen. What we knew about them is that they tended homes and clearings (land) of their own.

Nonetheless I agree that this sentence about the people having no homes or lands of thier own being more ready to join Húrin has some apeal. But in my view it does fit some inhabitants of Brethil much better then the Wooodmen from south of Taeglin. In sofare Aarons version is mor to my liking. What is about such a editing:

§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and {Avranc}[Daruin] were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose {Avranc}[Daruin] to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory.}RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, and they joined Húrin.>RD-EX-01.5<WH Note 54 Isolated page end & text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil <{despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth>, desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - {are}were/ also/ willing to go with Hurin.> RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>

For smooth reading I add a clean text

§267 (§1a) Now it is said that those who sided with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the wrath of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and Daruin were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose Daruin to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but he wielded no such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the open woods - each minding his own houselands and little clearings and their confederation was loosened.
§268 (§1b) But some misliked this and would not serve under Daruin and made ready to depart, and they joined Húrin. A few men fearing the end of Brethil despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth, desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - were also willing to go with Hurin. At the Taeglin crossing they fell in with Asgon, who had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon greeted him - and was glad that Hardang had been punished. And he was angered that no one had told Húrin of their coming.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Aiwendil, Maedhros, please comment at least at this, since it seems we come to the point were we start editing the text we three once agreed upon.

[emrys]

just a note...

It seems to me that you have omitted this:

§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02.7<WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 editorial addition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>

This part should be inserted before the meeting with Asgon, isn't it?

- Emrys -

[Findegil]

Indeed that would from my next §, as it does in our version as you have it.

Why do you think it should come before the meeting with Asgon?
Húrin meet Asgon at the crossing of Taeglin, so how could Húrin before that gather any of the wood-men that lived south of Taeglin? Or do you consider that the wood-men all left their former homes at the time of Túrins activity with the Outlaws and that Húrin did not gather them from south of Taeglin but from within Brethil?
If that would be the case than "having no homes or lands of their own" would realy fit them very well.

Really that is case to be considered: Did all the wood-men left their homes and did Húrin gather them from Brethil? Or did he gather the last remants that still lived south of Taeglin?

Respectfully
Findegil

[emrys]

Yes, I think that the point is this one: Who are the Woodmen?

1) people of the folk of haleth living in the forest (without homes or lands...)

2) outlaws living in the forerst:

a) north of taeglin

b) south of taeglin

I think best of the first choice; don't think there should be any more outlaws south of taeglin after the departure of the wolf-men.

Don't know for sure what Tolkien intended with that note.

[Findegil]

Thinking further on it and re-reading what is said in the Narn I agree that taken in combination it is most probable that Húrin did not gather any woodmen south of Taeglin. Rather he would find followers by woodmean tha had come to Brethil and lingered their 'having no homes or lands of their own'.

If we can agree on that, this is what our version shuold become:

§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and {Avranc}[Daruin] were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose {Avranc}[Daruin] to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory.}RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH Note 54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02.7b<WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the {wood-men}[woodmen] (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>RD-EX-03.1<WH, Note 54, Text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - {are}were willing to go with Hurin.>

RD-EX-02.5 <WH, Note 57 Húrin in Nargothrond>

§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>

And again smooth text for a better reading:

Now it is said that those who sided with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the wrath of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and Daruin were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose Daruin to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but he wielded no such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the open woods - each minding his own houselands and little clearings and their confederation was loosened.
But some misliked this and would not serve under Daruin and made ready to depart, and others there were who despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and wished to fly south and they joined Húrin. But now Húrin seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance seemed to have heartened him, and he walked now strongly. They passed into the woods and gathered the last fugitives of the woodmen (the kin of the folk of Brethil). A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - were willing to go with Hurin.

Húrin in Nargothrond

At the Taeglin crossing they fell in with Asgon, who had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon greeted him - and was glad that Hardang had been punished. And he was angered that no one had told Húrin of their coming.
Asgon they chose for captain, but he treated Húrin as lord, and did as he willed. And he asked therefore Húrin: ‘Whither shall we go? We must know a place of refuge.’ And Húrin elected to go to Nargothrond.

Respectfully
Findegil