The One Ring and invisibility

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Melilot Brandybuck

I've wondered this before also. When Bilbo wore the Ring in Mirkwood, he did not appear to suffer from any effects of the Ring, other than invisibility. No distorted visions or hallucinations, no watching eyes or other unbidden images of past/future like what happened to Frodo. Was this because Sauron's powers were diminished at that time? Could Sauron have sensed that someone was wearing his Ring?

That was because Bilbo had the Ring just for a few weeks at that time. Concerning Sauron sensing the Ring, Bilbo was faar away from him! Sauron did not sense the Ring entering Mordor, now why would he sense it in Mirkwood, which was not even fully under his domination. The only moment Sauron sensed the Ring was when Frodo claimed it as his own (in Mordor, what more, even in the place where it was forged).

Concerning the invisibility, let me add a few more points. I believe TM's explanation to be quite correct. The Elven lords inhabited both the worlds, as well as the Maiar (and Bombadil), so they won't get invisible. Isildur did, the Hobbits did. Aragorn, Denethor, Boromir, everyone probably would, though it may seem strange - and if they really wanted to master the Ring and claimed it as their own, the power would have been sensed stemming from them (something like from Sam when Snaga saw him). And they would have seen to that they find themselves an outfit and they would probably look like a Ringwraith then (i.e. let's say in Denethor's case the Steward's throne - and maybe even the King's, later - usurped by an invisible hooded figure in beautiful Gondorian-coloured black and white cloak and with a silver or golden mask instead of a face).

Concerning the Sting, Elessar and all things that are visible, resp. their light, I believe this is indeed given simply by the fact that the object glows. Similarly, for example the Silmarilli would have been shining in such a case, or the Star-Glass; or a simple lantern would do the same as well. If you entered a room where there is Frodo with the Ring and a lantern, you will see the room is lit, but you won't see the source. At the moment Frodo dropped the lantern, it would be seen. Of course other things, like that with the mug in the example used above, would have needed a further clarification. But I would say that here it may not be only physical thing, but also based on the intention of the bearer - my personal belief is that at the moment Frodo would have claimed the mug intentionally as his own (even subconsciously), it would have disappeared. If he simply touched it, accidentally, the mug would have remained there unaffected.

And concerning the fact that no one noticed the Three on their bearers' fingers, I would say it could have been given by many factors. The first thing is something like "I am not seen when I don't want to", really some sort of, how a stupid simple mortal would say, magic. Second thing is that definitely Elrond or Galadriel had lots of other jewelry, so, you wouldn't think about the ring on Elrond's hand deeper than you do about the circlet on his head. If you look at Galadriel's hand, you don't care much of her wedding ring, or this is at least what it seems to you. Maybe if you thought about it deeply, you'd realise that in fact her wedding ring is on the other hand, but here we are back at the problem that you won't probably even think about it. You can look at something and not realise what you are looking at, that's nothing unusual. The more if it is "magic". And in the best case, when a Ringwraith would have met Galadriel at the borders of Lórien, he would have felt terrible power, but I believe it would still need a lot of thinking from him to 100% say that it is stemming from the ring on her hand, even if he anticipated that.

[cesar.ewok]

Legate, I likewise believe that the Elven lords and the Maiar inhabited both worlds; but where exactly is it told?

And a question: wraith world = spirit world?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legate

The only moment Sauron sensed the Ring was when Frodo claimed it as his own (in Mordor, what more, even in the place where it was forged).

Hm, I am not completely sure about that:

Originally Posted by The tower of Cirith Ungol

Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again. Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than ever, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt.

Originally Posted by cesar.ewok

Legate, I likewise believe that the Elven lords and the Maiar inhabited both worlds; but where exactly is it told?

Originally Posted by Many Meetings, FotR

And here in Rivendell there live still some of [Sauron]'s chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Concerning the invisibility, let me add a few more points. I believe TM's explanation to be quite correct. The Elven lords inhabited both the worlds, as well as the Maiar (and Bombadil), so they won't get invisible. Isildur did, the Hobbits did. Aragorn, Denethor, Boromir, everyone probably would, though it may seem strange - and if they really wanted to master the Ring and claimed it as their own, the power would have been sensed stemming from them (something like from Sam when Snaga saw him). And they would have seen to that they find themselves an outfit and they would probably look like a Ringwraith then (i.e. let's say in Denethor's case the Steward's throne - and maybe even the King's, later - usurped by an invisible hooded figure in beautiful Gondorian-coloured black and white cloak and with a silver or golden mask instead of a face).

You know, I had always assumed the Ring would make any mortal invisible, but for some reason the full implications never occurred to me.

Would it be necessary to wear it all the time, though?

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And concerning the fact that no one noticed the Three on their bearers' fingers, I would say it could have been given by many factors. The first thing is something like "I am not seen when I don't want to", really some sort of, how a stupid simple mortal would say, magic. Second thing is that definitely Elrond or Galadriel had lots of other jewelry, so, you wouldn't think about the ring on Elrond's hand deeper than you do about the circlet on his head. If you look at Galadriel's hand, you don't care much of her wedding ring, or this is at least what it seems to you. Maybe if you thought about it deeply, you'd realise that in fact her wedding ring is on the other hand, but here we are back at the problem that you won't probably even think about it. You can look at something and not realise what you are looking at, that's nothing unusual. The more if it is "magic". And in the best case, when a Ringwraith would have met Galadriel at the borders of Lórien, he would have felt terrible power, but I believe it would still need a lot of thinking from him to 100% say that it is stemming from the ring on her hand, even if he anticipated that.

Hmm, I am not sure I buy this part, although I agree with the first part of the post. Galadriel asks Sam if he has seen anything of the Ring and Sam replies that he hasn't, and was in fact wondering what she and Frodo were talking about. And there does not seem to be any mention of people noticing the Ring of Fire on the hand of Gandalf, despite encounters over countless years with all manner of beings (Men, Elves, and even the wizard Saruman, who apparently only gradually came to realize that Gandalf was in possession of the Ring of Fire). Why, for example, would somebody like Saruman, who was sensitive to the use of "magic", or at least the powers associated with a ring like that held by Gandalf, not see it immediately??

All of these imply to me that it was possible to keep the Three Rings invisible or at least unnoticed. Of course, their role is different than the role of the One Ring, which is a ring that literally broadcasts power (thus the ability of the Nazgul and even Gollum to sense it), so this perhaps explains in part how it was possible to keep them hidden.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by cesar.ewok

And a question: wraith world = spirit world?

Of course.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I am not completely sure about that:

But the part you quote only means, or at least I take it like that, that Sauron knew there was something strange going on there. It could have been a great Elf lord, or Gandalf who was spying in Mordor. What I meant by sensing was that Sauron would know that there is the Ring. And the only moment he 100% knew it was when Frodo put it on. He didn't know at that point - otherwise, he would have sent all the Nazgul to Cirith Ungol. The same, maybe the Necromancer in Dol Guldur could have sensed some strange power stirring up there, but he couldn't have known if it's Bilbo with the Ring, or Thranduil stirring up all his magic around his stronghold, or Gandalf chasing of an army of spiders by all his power unleashed at once, or whatever else.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You know, I had always assumed the Ring would make any mortal invisible, but for some reason the full implications never occurred to me.

Would it be necessary to wear it all the time, though?

I believe not. But the person would have it with himself, like Bilbo, all the time - and when e.g. Denethor would have welcomed delegates from Harad, I'm sure he'd put the Ring on and intimidated them to do what he wanted (make peace, retreat their armies behind Poros or whatever).

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Hmm, I am not sure I buy this part, although I agree with the first part of the post. Galadriel asks Sam if he has seen anything of the Ring and Sam replies that he hasn't, and was in fact wondering what she and Frodo were talking about. And there does not seem to be any mention of people noticing the Ring of Fire on the hand of Gandalf, despite encounters over countless years with all manner of beings (Men, Elves, and even the wizard Saruman, who apparently only gradually came to realize that Gandalf was in possession of the Ring of Fire). Why, for example, would somebody like Saruman, who was sensitive to the use of "magic", or at least the powers associated with a ring like that held by Gandalf, not see it immediately??

All of these imply to me that it was possible to keep the Three Rings invisible or at least unnoticed. Of course, their role is different than the role of the One Ring, which is a ring that literally broadcasts power (thus the ability of the Nazgul and even Gollum to sense it), so this perhaps explains in part how it was possible to keep them hidden.

And this is what I am saying. The people simply don't think about them. And what more, the "magic" would be fooling them (at least those with lesser will) so that they won't remember/think of that even if they got an idea about such a thing. Indeed, only someone who really came to one of the bearers with the intention "Now I will go and take a look whether he doesn't have one of the Rings" could spot them. It would have to be real interest, not just simple curiosity. From all the Middle-Earth I believe only Sauron, Saruman and the Ringwraith (or the Mouth), the latter only had they been specially instructed for that by Sauron, could spot the Rings and not be fooled by that "misleading spell". But Saruman was with Elrond and Galadriel probably only during the White Council meetings, let's say once in fifty or hundred years, and he didn't know whether the bearers are Elrond and Galadriel or Glorfindel and Celeborn or someone else in their houses. The more that the Three were taboo and were never spoken of. Cf. when Glóin asks the Elves about the Rings:

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

"But still there are the Three. What of the Three Rings of the Elves? Very mighty Rings, it is said. Do not the Elf-lords keep them? (..) I see Elf-lords here. Will they not say?"
The Elves returned no answer. (...) Elrond [said] "(...) But of them it is not permitted to speak."

Glóin was not completely stupid. He was now informed about the Rings and he had two of them in the room with him, yet he turns to all the "Elf-lords" in the room. Despite the fact that Elrond was the Master of the House, it was not self-evident that he would be one of the Keepers, as many of us, the outside observes, would think. Even Saruman, during his visit of Rivendell, would have to check all the elves in the house to be sure. Anyway, wouldn't giving the Ring to one of the more "active" elves who ride out to the wilderness, be more useful? (Of course the learned would know that the Three were made for protection and healing, but still.) And concerning Sam, he didn't even expect any Ring in there. He was also probably thinking of Gaffer and the Shire at that time. He didn't even see or hear what Galadriel and Frodo were talking about.

Anyway, this topic would do for many pages and it's very intriguing, but it's not actually the main topic of this thread.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But the part you quote only means, or at least I take it like that, that Sauron knew there was something strange going on there. It could have been a great Elf lord, or Gandalf who was spying in Mordor.

Hm, I would say that Sauron would be able to differentiate between an Elf Lord/Gandalf and the One Ring, with which he had a special relation. I don't think he was able to spot elves or istari by pure subtle perception, from miles away, but given the episode of Frodo at the Amon Lhaw, he was capable of perceiving the worn Ring from a far greater distance.

But Saruman was with Elrond and Galadriel probably only during the White Council meetings, let's say once in fifty or hundred years, and he didn't know whether the bearers are Elrond and Galadriel or Glorfindel and Celeborn or someone else in their houses.

I would guess that, given the importance of their coalition, the elves did not keep their secrets concerning the rings from Saruman, esspecially considering his developing interest in them. As for the taboo about them, I believe it applies only to those outside the White Council.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I would say that Sauron would be able to differentiate between an Elf Lord/Gandalf and the One Ring, with which he had a special relation. I don't think he was able to spot elves or istari by pure subtle perception, from miles away, but given the episode of Frodo at the Amon Lhaw, he was capable of perceiving the worn Ring from a far greater distance.

Well, but then you are definitely saying that Sauron knew the Ring was in Mordor. Which is something I just cannot agree with. Yes, he could sense, in general, the Ring - sometimes. But he was not 100% precise. I imagine it as being inside a room where there are many people talking. Among them are people like Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf, Frodo, Denethor... All of them are important to Sauron. Suddenly, Sauron hears a raised voice from Osgiliath. He looks around - and it takes him a little to focus and then he notices it's only Denethor marching his armies to Osgiliath. Then he hears another shout from Rivendell - and sees that it's his Nazgul being splashed at the Bruinen Fords. Then he hears another shout, and sees that it's coming from Amon Hen. Looks there, but suddenly another, stronger shout comes from other place and he looks over there and so he doesn't notice Frodo.
I would say Sauron knew about some power in Mordor. But he did not know where the Ring is. He could have thought Aragorn has it, or Gandalf, or anyone else. Later, when Shagrat brought the mithril-coat and the dagger and the cloak to Barad-Dur, Sauron would have known there was some sort of "spy from the Shire" there, and if he were to believe Shagrat, he would have known there was also "the great elf warrior" with him, who is still running around somewhere. Ergo, if he knew the Ring is in Mordor, he would make all effort to catch that "great elf warrior" - mainly, he would have the clear information now: there is a great elf warrior with MY ring running around at Mordor. No, this is, in my opinion, not what Sauron could have thought in the slightest.

Also, consider this (emphasise mine):

Originally Posted by Mount Doom

And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare.

Sauron did not expect it. Not in the slightest. He did not even think that the Ring could appear in Mordor. The Mouth of Sauron presumes that Frodo was "spying" in Mordor. This is probably the opinion of Sauron himself. So, no Ring inside Mordor. Even if Frodo's mysterious companion had it, Sauron would have acted differently. When he sent the Nine to the Shire, why wouldn't he made all effort to get the Ring inside his own realm? No, he just thought that there are some spies with no magic Rings. Yes, it will be good to catch them, but the war with Gondor was far more important.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would guess that, given the importance of their coalition, the elves did not keep their secrets concerning the rings from Saruman, esspecially considering his developing interest in them. As for the taboo about them, I believe it applies only to those outside the White Council.

Not entirely sure. It is only one of the possibilities. As I said, it will be for another thread. But why did not then Gandalf tell Saruman about Narya? It is said that

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, The Istari

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it

I believe that the Three were taboo even among those in the Council. Also, we are told that Galadriel's view of Saruman was not as trustworthy. It could be that originally, the Rings were hidden, Saruman discovered Gandalf's, and that was before the first Council even met. And later, at the Council, they all agreed to tell about the Rings to each other. That would be explainable. But, was that really even needed? The Three were made "for protection and healing", and they did not have much of a strategic value in the Council's plans. "My Ring and Lórien are my own business, I will take care of it. Now let's focus on other things that bother us outside our own realms." That could be, in short, the motto of the Ring-bearers on the Council.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but then you are definitely saying that Sauron knew the Ring was in Mordor. Which is something I just cannot agree with.

I agree with your argument. While the Cirith Ungol event does not qualify as a moment when Sauron could have certainly and objectively identified the One Ring, it could be that he unreasonably discarded it because of his flawed logic and the deceit of his enemies - the very thing they were betting on. He was effectively helped on believing in false information/conditions and discarding the real deal.

But why did not then Gandalf tell Saruman about Narya?

Hm... strange indeed. I would guess that Cirdan requested that, giving his relative mistrust of Saruman (at least when compared to Gandalf) - otherwise I could not explain why would Gandalf be secretive towards the leader of his mission, from their, likely, first year in Middle Earth. Perhaps Cirdan knew of Gandalf's honest allegiance to Saruman and he wanted to prevent a situation where Saruman would get to own it, by requesting it - therefore, he may have forbidden such an act or anything that may lead to it. However, it is, indeed, simpler to just accept that the ring-holders kept the matter to themselves.

[Morwen]

At the end of the Silmarillion, in the part concerning the Rings of Power, isn't there a passage which mentions that Saruman knew that Narya had been given to Gandalf and in fact resented this? Or is this a false memory (don't have book with me).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm... strange indeed. I would guess that Cirdan requested that, giving his relative mistrust of Saruman (at least when compared to Gandalf) - otherwise I could not explain why would Gandalf be secretive towards the leader of his mission, from their, likely, first year in Middle Earth. Perhaps Cirdan knew of Gandalf's honest allegiance to Saruman and he wanted to prevent a situation where Saruman would get to own it, by requesting it - therefore, he may have forbidden such an act or anything that may lead to it. However, it is, indeed, simpler to just accept that the ring-holders kept the matter to themselves.

Or even beyond the wishes of Cirdan, there seem to be a general agreement that the whereabouts of the Three Rings was not spoken of. So when Elrond says that "we do not speak of them", this may have reflected a general agreement among the bearers of the Three Rings and Gandalf simply followed this in not revealing the fact that he had Narya to Saruman.

If this is true, presumably this dates all the way back to the Second Age, when the Three Rings were first revealed to Sauron, and then hidden away.

Otherwise, I agree that the invisibility conveyed by the One Ring has to do with transport to the Wraith world. The Three Rings never had anything to do with this power and therefore have no such effect.