The One Ring and invisibility

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but then you are definitely saying that Sauron knew the Ring was in Mordor. Which is something I just cannot agree with.

I agree with your argument. While the Cirith Ungol event does not qualify as a moment when Sauron could have certainly and objectively identified the One Ring, it could be that he unreasonably discarded it because of his flawed logic and the deceit of his enemies - the very thing they were betting on. He was effectively helped on believing in false information/conditions and discarding the real deal.

But why did not then Gandalf tell Saruman about Narya?

Hm... strange indeed. I would guess that Cirdan requested that, giving his relative mistrust of Saruman (at least when compared to Gandalf) - otherwise I could not explain why would Gandalf be secretive towards the leader of his mission, from their, likely, first year in Middle Earth. Perhaps Cirdan knew of Gandalf's honest allegiance to Saruman and he wanted to prevent a situation where Saruman would get to own it, by requesting it - therefore, he may have forbidden such an act or anything that may lead to it. However, it is, indeed, simpler to just accept that the ring-holders kept the matter to themselves.

[Morwen]

At the end of the Silmarillion, in the part concerning the Rings of Power, isn't there a passage which mentions that Saruman knew that Narya had been given to Gandalf and in fact resented this? Or is this a false memory (don't have book with me).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Morwen

At the end of the Silmarillion, in the part concerning the Rings of Power, isn't there a passage which mentions that Saruman knew that Narya had been given to Gandalf and in fact resented this? Or is this a false memory (don't have book with me).

Yes, it was, and if you look two posts above, you will find me quoting the same from UT, at the very end of my post. It was already debated here even before.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Morwen

At the end of the Silmarillion, in the part concerning the Rings of Power, isn't there a passage which mentions that Saruman knew that Narya had been given to Gandalf and in fact resented this? Or is this a false memory (don't have book with me).

Hm, Of the rings of power and the Third Age actually contradicts the passage quoted by Legate from UT, concerning Saruman knowing about the possessor of Narya:

But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been committed.

[CSteefel]

In the Rings of Power in the Silmarillion, it says of the 3 rings

Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed.

It is also stated that "ere the Third Age was ended", it was known that the Rings were with Elrond and Galadriel,

But the Red Ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been committed.

But as for Saruman discovering that Gandalf had Narya, this is from The Unfinished Tales, The Istari

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

So there is a contradiction here. I see now (later) that Legate already posted on this...

[Galendor]

So the consensus seems to be that invisibility was not an intended power of the One Ring, but rather a side effect of its true power - allowing the wearer into the wraith or "spirit" dimension. Mortal beings such as men, hobbits, and dwarfs would uncontrollably become invisible as a side effect of wearing the Ring, but certain beings such as Sauron, high Elves, and Gandalf would probably be able to control the shift into the wraith dimension and thus would not necessarily be invisible if wearing the Ring.

The Ring also confers unnaturally long life to the mortal wearer, I wonder if this is also just a side effect rather than an intended power. Perhaps a mortal stops ageing whenever in the wraith dimension (whenever wearing the Ring). I suppose just keeping the Ring in your pocket or on a chain would not confer long life. Gollum, I suppose, probably wore the ring for very long periods when living under the Misty Mountains. He probably wore it while sleeping.

Any light emitted by the wearer or an object they were holding would be visible.

Also I think the mortal wearer is not 100% invisible but very close to it - In The Hobbit, Bilbo found that when wearing the Ring in full sunlight, he still cast a faint shadow. So the wearer must absorb some light and thus not be completely transparent (invisible), agreed?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galendor

So the consensus seems to be that invisibility was not an intended power of the One Ring, but rather a side effect of its true power - allowing the wearer into the wraith or "spirit" dimension.

Originally Posted by Galendor

Also I think the mortal wearer is not 100% invisible but very close to it - In The Hobbit, Bilbo found that when wearing the Ring in full sunlight, he still cast a faint shadow. So the wearer must absorb some light and thus not be completely transparent (invisible), agreed?

Agreed. The faint shadow makes it sound as though the Ring is a sort of "cloaking device" that perhaps bends light rays around the wearer, and isn't 100% efficient. If we only had The Hobbit to go by, I'd interpret it that way. However, in The Lord of the Rings, the descriptions of what happens when one puts on the Ring support the idea of going into a parellel dimension. Besides, Gandalf specifically mentions the "wraith world" and "the other side".

Why the shadow, then? And why can someone wearing the Ring still see the real world, although dimly? It's simple: the Ring transports its wearer into the wraith world, but not all the way.

c.f. what Gandalf says to Frodo:

"You were in gravest peril when you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith world yourself, and they might have seized you."

[Galendor]

Why the shadow, then? And why can someone wearing the Ring still see the real world, although dimly? It's simple: the Ring transports its wearer into the wraith world, but not all the way.

Good thinking, good find on the quote from Gandalf, and it makes sense. I guess to be all the way in the wraith dimension, one would have to be, um, dead. So the Ring shifts the wearer part way into that dimension. I suppose we can only speculate why this effect would be useful to Sauron.

When light interacts with matter, it is either reflected, refracted, or absorbed. Refracted light changes direction, and we can't really see that effect. Absorbed light we can see - objects absorbing light will appear darker, or a different color if they only absorb certain wavelengths (colors) of the visible spectrum. I suspect that the wearer of the Ring casts a faint shadow because he/she still absorbs some tiny amount of light. Under bright light, this would cast a faint shadow, and possibly also be seen by an observer as a slighly darkened form if the Ring wearer were standing between an observer and a light source. If the person wearing the Ring were not betwen the observer and the light source, they might appear as a faint "darkness" in front of whatever they were standing in front of.

As far as reflected light is concerned, I wonder if the wearer of the Ring were wearing something very reflective (such as a mithril coat), if light might be reflected from that and be visible to an observer, in a similar fashion as the visible light emitted from a magical glowing sword or vial.

On another note, it seems like the fact that Bilbo wore the Ring continuously for weeks or months while in the Hall of the Mirkwood Elves doesn't quite fit with later interpretations of the Ring's "wraithifying" effect on mortals.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galendor

On another note, it seems like the fact that Bilbo wore the Ring continuously for weeks or months while in the Hall of the Mirkwood Elves doesn't quite fit with later interpretations of the Ring's "wraithifying" effect on mortals.

I see no problem with that. There is the well known "Hobbit-strength" and I also believe even in the case of the Nazgul "wraithifying" did not happen in several weeks or months but in years. The Rings granted a mortal longer life, and I would say the "fading" occured only when the mortal exceeded his normal lifespan too much. The Nazgul appeared several hundred years after the mortal Men got their Rings. Bilbo was more or less okay. Gollum did not wear the Ring much in the latter days. Frodo was okay with the Ring itself, but there was the presence of Nazgul, the much stronger "awakened" will of Mordor, the will of Sauron focused contretely at him, and mainly, in the end, the Morgul-wound. The fact that Frodo almost faded at Bruinen (as Gandalf put it) was not an effect of the Ring, but mainly of the Morgul-wound.

Recommended literature: see Gandalf's words about effect of a Ring at mortal, FotR chapter 2: Shadows of the past; Also: Flight to the Ford, Council of Elrond.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm... strange indeed. I would guess that Cirdan requested that, giving his relative mistrust of Saruman (at least when compared to Gandalf) - otherwise I could not explain why would Gandalf be secretive towards the leader of his mission, from their, likely, first year in Middle Earth. Perhaps Cirdan knew of Gandalf's honest allegiance to Saruman and he wanted to prevent a situation where Saruman would get to own it, by requesting it - therefore, he may have forbidden such an act or anything that may lead to it. However, it is, indeed, simpler to just accept that the ring-holders kept the matter to themselves.

Or even beyond the wishes of Cirdan, there seem to be a general agreement that the whereabouts of the Three Rings was not spoken of. So when Elrond says that "we do not speak of them", this may have reflected a general agreement among the bearers of the Three Rings and Gandalf simply followed this in not revealing the fact that he had Narya to Saruman.

If this is true, presumably this dates all the way back to the Second Age, when the Three Rings were first revealed to Sauron, and then hidden away.

Otherwise, I agree that the invisibility conveyed by the One Ring has to do with transport to the Wraith world. The Three Rings never had anything to do with this power and therefore have no such effect.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Ring also confers unnaturally long life to the mortal wearer, I wonder if this is also just a side effect rather than an intended power.

No, I don't think so. It was quite deliberate, indeed the principal function of the Rings. Celebrimbor's purpose was to slow or halt the ravages of the swift passage of Time in Middle-earth; to allow the creation of places like Lorien wherein the Elves would feel the burden of years the less. I suppose one could say that it was 'unintended' in the sense that he never intended for Mortals to have them, of course- for them serial longevity was unnatural and eventually a horror.

I suppose just keeping the Ring in your pocket or on a chain would not confer long life. Gollum, I suppose, probably wore the ring for very long periods when living under the Misty Mountains. He probably wore it while sleeping.

This isn't so, in fact it's expressly refuted in the text. Gollum wore It very little in the dark tunnels. Bilbo put it on occasionally, and briefly. It was possesion which caused the 'preservation,' and can be seen in Frodo's case as well even though he never wore it before his quest. Bilbo was already aging at the time of the Council: possession had passed on 17 years hence. But of course the really rapid aging only took hold when the Ring and all its works were nullified.

Had Bilbo or especially Gollum worn the Ring for extended periods they would have become wraiths.

[The Might]

I agree with William Cloud Hickli here, indeed the Rings had the power to preserve, though here just like with the invisibility thing I think it is only a side effect. Why would an immortal Maia want to create a Ring that could enable him to live longer? No sense at all. It was the power the Ring had to create (for example the foundations of Barad-dur) that gave it this power to preserve things and this possibly in the presence of mortals made them live longer.