Awaken or born by Cuiviénen? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mithadan*** · 12-01-2007, 11:38 AM

The hallmark of Tolkien's Legendarium is internal consistency. The "awakening" of the Elves has continually been a part of Middle Earth almost since the beginning. If the tale of the awakening of the Elves were deemed a "faerie tale", the Legendarium would lose its consistency. It would lack any origin of the Elves despite the fact that it is, at bottom, a creation myth. There would be no basis for the Valar to "discover" the Elves in the East, the legends of the awakening of Men, Dwarves and Ents would also be rendered meaningless.

I recognize that, late in his life, Tolkien began experimenting with making Middle Earth consistent with the "real world". This would have required elimination of the flat Middle Earth concept, the Trees, the creation of the Sun and Moon, and a reworking or elimination of the drowning of Numenor. He did not get very far with his experimentation and whether Tolkien actually had decided to conduct this wholesale revision of his writings is, at best, a subject for debate. One might speculate that if Tolkien had gone forward with making Middle Earth more "scientific", i.e. less mythological and more consistent with our Earth, then he might have done away with the Elvish awakening myth. However, I doubt this. Tolkien was a Catholic. He certainly would not have the Elves "evolve". Nor is there any hint of an alternate tale in any published writings. So to state unequivocally that the Elvish awakening tale was a faerie story is simply speculation.

There is some slight basis for suggesting that the "old tales" were simply muddled Gondorian memories of tales told long before in Numenor; that they were "Mannish" faerie stories, corrupting the truth of the matter as known by the Elves (or at least the Noldor). But again, there is no alternate version of the tale, and The Silmarillion is itself a creation myth. How can you have a creation myth without accounting for the creation of Elves, Men, etc.

The Tale of 144 is, however, conceded to be a childrens' counting story. That does not mean the underlying myth is similarly a children's story.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-01-2007, 01:00 PM

Yes, but.

For Tolkien as a philologist and medievalist, the 'consistency of reality' *included* uncertainties, confusions, garbled traditions, mysteries, enigmas, and a general observation that reality is messy. He was very aware that real history has, and thus feigned history should have, a lot of 'maybes.' Hence for example The Downfall of Anadune, as a garbled and inaccurate tradition; and his deliberate refusal to 'explain' Bombadil or reconcile him with the rest of the legendarium.

Galin · 12-02-2007, 07:30 PM

And I am not denying an 'awakening' of the Elves in any event, nor do I think Tolkien was by writing the Cuivienyarna, but rather I'm merely proposing that the nature of the tale might cast doubt on certain details within itself.

The topic was raised with specific respect to Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe: if the Child's tale contains the 'truth' that each Elf awoke with a spouse, then there follows a line of argument that these Elves are not of the Eru-begotten.

But the existence of a fairy tale which involves the Awakening of the Elves in no way need 'replace' the account of the same event in The Annals or Quenta Silmarillion, or some other account.

12-01-2007, 11:38 AM	#1
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,397	The hallmark of Tolkien's Legendarium is internal consistency. The "awakening" of the Elves has continually been a part of Middle Earth almost since the beginning. If the tale of the awakening of the Elves were deemed a "faerie tale", the Legendarium would lose its consistency. It would lack any origin of the Elves despite the fact that it is, at bottom, a creation myth. There would be no basis for the Valar to "discover" the Elves in the East, the legends of the awakening of Men, Dwarves and Ents would also be rendered meaningless. I recognize that, late in his life, Tolkien began experimenting with making Middle Earth consistent with the "real world". This would have required elimination of the flat Middle Earth concept, the Trees, the creation of the Sun and Moon, and a reworking or elimination of the drowning of Numenor. He did not get very far with his experimentation and whether Tolkien actually had decided to conduct this wholesale revision of his writings is, at best, a subject for debate. One might speculate that if Tolkien had gone forward with making Middle Earth more "scientific", i.e. less mythological and more consistent with our Earth, then he might have done away with the Elvish awakening myth. However, I doubt this. Tolkien was a Catholic. He certainly would not have the Elves "evolve". Nor is there any hint of an alternate tale in any published writings. So to state unequivocally that the Elvish awakening tale was a faerie story is simply speculation. There is some slight basis for suggesting that the "old tales" were simply muddled Gondorian memories of tales told long before in Numenor; that they were "Mannish" faerie stories, corrupting the truth of the matter as known by the Elves (or at least the Noldor). But again, there is no alternate version of the tale, and The Silmarillion is itself a creation myth. How can you have a creation myth without accounting for the creation of Elves, Men, etc. The Tale of 144 is, however, conceded to be a childrens' counting story. That does not mean the underlying myth is similarly a children's story. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

12-01-2007, 01:00 PM	#2
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Yes, but. For Tolkien as a philologist and medievalist, the 'consistency of reality' included uncertainties, confusions, garbled traditions, mysteries, enigmas, and a general observation that reality is messy. He was very aware that real history has, and thus feigned history should have, a lot of 'maybes.' Hence for example The Downfall of Anadune, as a garbled and inaccurate tradition; and his deliberate refusal to 'explain' Bombadil or reconcile him with the rest of the legendarium. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-02-2007, 07:30 PM	#3
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	And I am not denying an 'awakening' of the Elves in any event, nor do I think Tolkien was by writing the Cuivienyarna, but rather I'm merely proposing that the nature of the tale might cast doubt on certain details within itself. The topic was raised with specific respect to Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe: if the Child's tale contains the 'truth' that each Elf awoke with a spouse, then there follows a line of argument that these Elves are not of the Eru-begotten. But the existence of a fairy tale which involves the Awakening of the Elves in no way need 'replace' the account of the same event in The Annals or Quenta Silmarillion, or some other account.