Silmarillion - Chapter 19 - Of Beren and Luthien

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, I remember that thread on oaths and have found it again so it may be linked to this one.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10923

I enjoyed reading this section quite a bit, though I found parts of it very distracting, and the suspension of disbelief not as natural as is usually the case when reading Tolkien's work. One of my stumbling blocks was the persistant wish that Tolkien had devised other creatures instead of refering to vampires and werewolves. I do of course realize that elves and dwarves were not entirely unknown before he started writing about them, but these particular beings seem to be from a somewhat alien mythology, or perhaps the intervening years have rendered them so. Another less jarring hurdle was Huan's various fights, particularly the one with Sauron.

I suppose one might say that some of the events are less understated than usual.

[Lalaith]

I never found the tale of Beren and Luthien as mesmerising as that of the children of Hurin, or of the fall of Gondolin.
For me, the tale is more like a series of memorable highlights - eg Beren's vision of Luthien dancing, the Camlost moment. Huan is actually in some ways the most interesting character in the story.
Does anyone else find this?

The other highlight for me is the nobility of Finrod Felagund...."needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Beor".

Compare that to Turgon and the Fen of Serech. Ha.

[Eönwë]

[QUOTE=Lalaith;538709]The other highlight for me is the nobility of Finrod Felagund...."needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Beor".[QUOTE]

Don't forget, Finrod did kill a Werewolf with his bare hands. Anyway, without this Aragorn would not be alive, remember that. And neither would Elrond. How else is Maiar blood going to go into the royal (later Numenorean) bloodlines. 'Tis an echo of the tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

Eurgh! If you think about it, Aragorn and Arwen are actually like cousins, except that it has many generations' gap between them, so his royal (and Maiar) blood is probably far more diluted than Arwen's

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

One of my stumbling blocks was the persistant wish that Tolkien had devised other creatures instead of refering to vampires and werewolves. I do of course realize that elves and dwarves were not entirely unknown before he started writing about them, but these particular beings seem to be from a somewhat alien mythology, or perhaps the intervening years have rendered them so.

The latter, mainly, I think. Our ideas of vampires and werewolves have become more and more standardized (through film versions, etc). The sources in folklore are quite varied.

[Bêthberry]

This chapter deserves much thoughtful discussion yet I am sure that at this season we many Downers are hard pressed to find time for such leisurely pursuits.

Yet Aiwendil's introduction has moved me to reread the chapter. One obviously intriguing question would be why Tolkien produced this story in so many forms, particularly in both verse and prose. Was Doom such an important theme to him?

The Lay I have yet to read--mayhap over the holidays. The opening paragraphs of this chapter have an especially rhythmic style to them which is perhaps owing to its incarnation in verse. But it is a style more rhetorical than the plainer historical summarising style found other chapters. I could be wrong, but I wonder if certain parts of The Silmarillion legend moved Tolkien more readily to verse, as if there were music in his muse.

Not much time to write more now, but I will say that this chapter, as so much of the Legendarium, leaves me always astounded by the cruelty of the elves. All questions of the comitatus and oaths aside, I have always been bemused by their readiness to do each other in. And these are the great and the illustrious? For all their art and love of beauty and alleged intelligence, they are suprisingly prone to violence.

In a world of permutation and change, the elves are lost, fatally constricted by a psychology which cannot accommodate change or freedom of choice in others and by a social and political structure which equally binds them to a response which is unable to be creative and original. How ironic!

-- just some musings prompted by the rereading. I've actually enjoyed the story more this time.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Nice thoughts, Bb, and very interesting observations on elves.

I seem to remember reading that in the early days, elves and men bore a greater similar to each other, though at this point men do seem the better!

[Aiwendil]

Lalaith wrote:

The other highlight for me is the nobility of Finrod Felagund...."needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Beor".

Compare that to Turgon and the Fen of Serech. Ha.

That's an interesting point - I had never connected the two incidents, but Finrod's admittance of Beren to Nargothrond could perhaps be seen as a parallel to Turgon's refusal to admit Hurin . . . though of course to consider that here would be getting ahead of ourselves.

Bethberry wrote:

One obviously intriguing question would be why Tolkien produced this story in so many forms, particularly in both verse and prose. Was Doom such an important theme to him?

Certainly Beren & Luthien seems to have been a particularly important story to him. And though one must always be wary of the biographical connection, it is certainly worthy of note that he had the name 'Luthien' inscribed on her tombstone.

Hilde Bracegirdle wrote:

One of my stumbling blocks was the persistant wish that Tolkien had devised other creatures instead of refering to vampires and werewolves.

Though I personally don't find the vampires and werewolves unsuitable, I can see how one might think them a bit out of keeping with the rest of the Legendarium. It's interesting that Tolkien should call creatures like Draugluin 'werewolves', since in real world folklore this word seems to refer specifically to wolf-man shapechangers. The etymology is generally assumed to be 'were' (O.E. 'man') + 'wolf'. However, there is some doubt about this - another theory is that the first element is actually related to 'warg' (outlaw, rogue, wolf). If Tolkien subscribed to this view, then perhaps, at least from an etymological point of view, his application of 'werewolf' would seem more appropriate.

The origin of 'vampire' is not entirely certain, but it seems to be of Slavic origin and may be related to words meaning 'bat'. Since the modern image of the sophisticated, charming vampire arose fairly recently (19th century) it seems possible that here, as with the Elves and Dwarves, Tolkien saw himself as reviving the 'true' lore that had become distorted over the centuries.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Certainly Beren & Luthien seems to have been a particularly important story to him. And though one must always be wary of the biographical connection, it is certainly worthy of note that he had the name 'Luthien' inscribed on her tombstone.

Actually, it is on "their" tombstone, as the one stone marks the shared grave.

I'm probably the least likely persona on this site to choose biographical interpretations, as any number of my posts over the years can attest to. Carpenter provides the biographical tidbit about Edith dancing which has inspired legions of fans to see a connection, but frankly I think a story of such a great Saga and so teeming with themes and links to the rest of the Legendarium must provide fruitful avenues for other areas of discussion. What does it mean to say that as Luthien looked upon Beren doom fell upon her and she loved him? (Yes, I understand the literal consequence, that she forsakes her elven immortality, but there's more to this story than that.) Love is not what dooms Turin.

So what's with the Doom Raiders?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

One of the interesting bits in this chapter, to me,
are the lessons and consequences od Beren's trying
to take a second simaril. Tolkien may seek to indicate
the potential "greedy" nature of man (not unlike
Isildur keeping the Ring) and consequences of
not following proportion,balance, restraint, etc.
Although there doesn't seem to be any reason he
couldn't take all the simarills from Morgoth. And
how would Luthien's daddy have reacted if he had,
in a much less painful way, handed a simaril over to him?