Inching closer to The Hobbit film - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 12-08-2007, 05:03 PM

Not my reasoning Shakespeare's.... but clearly I am dishonest for referring to the car I have had for a couple of months as my new car....it was built in 2003.... so no new is not new period to speakers of English. It is one "signifier" more than one thing signified. Death isn't that clear cut either these days either or pregnancy come to that ...

People are free not to take a position since we don't live in Airstrip One.

Yours is clearly to bash a decent man for allegedly not liking films he had no contol over. In the scale of crimes it isn't child murder is it.

I don't care whether CT liked the films or not. Why do you since you clearly do not respect him? Clearly he can do nothing right in your eyes. I provided a link to the charity but clearly funding an archive for the author is a misuse of funds.

You claim to know CT's opinions as fact. Know better than someone who actually knows him. You seem to think he should have withdrawn his father's works from sale else he is a hypocrite.... ridiculous.

Really so what if the book sales went up because of the film? I bought a new set becasue the old ones fel apart and bought others because I happened to have the money in 2001-2 that I didn't have as a teenager. So my pounds count to wards you bonanza but I wasn't motivated by the films. I onlymanaged to sit through the second two once..... even when they came on TV I found better stuff to watch and they seem dated already. The Jackson films will I think be as the Nahum Tate "improvements" on King Lear - popular at the time but little more than curiosities now. Tolkien will owe no more to Jackson than Shakespeare does to Tate.

Sauron the White · 12-08-2007, 05:26 PM

Mithalwen - I am not bashing anyone, especially CTolkien. I think he has done fine work and am glad I was around to purchase and enjoy it.... several times over. This discussion started today when William CH said that CT would not allow Jackson use of anything outside of what New Line already owned if he was the last person on earth. Thats pretty strong. What made this interesting is that right here in this very forum many people have told me that CT was silent about the films and took no position neither pro or con. I consider William Cloud Hicklin to be an intelligent and well informed Tolkien reader and fan. In fact, in my humble opinion, I would place him in the top ten percent of intelligence here. So when he writes such a strong statement and seems to know the mind of CT, I stop and listen and ask why and where he got this from?

It seems to me that you can parse the language all you want and reduce yourself to the level of a courtroom lawyer arguing about the meaning of what is is. Most people think they already know. That is probably because they use common sense, live in the real world where people do not talk like Harvard debaters who challenge every definition if it does not fit their preconceived arguments.

I know what new is. I know what a new book is. I know that COH was by no means the first new Tolkien novel in thirty years. That is simply advertising fraud. And if the Tolkien Estate had any imput on that then shame on them for being part of it.

You say I claim to know the opinion of Christopher Tolkien. No I do not because I read others here saying many different things on the same subject. But I am trying to find out. And CT is no more a private person than Stephen King is. Despite the seclusion and demand for privacy, his name is out there like it or not. You cannot be that famous and then put on the shroud of a private person and think you can hide behind that. It just does not work that way. Very few people in the real world cares if CT is the Tolkien Estate of how the Estate is constituted, how they make decisions or what CT has to do with it. Christoper Tolkien is Christopher Tolkien and is a whole lot more of a public person than I or most of us ever will hope to be.

There is a difference between funding charities for the poor and funding academic or scholarly research for your own cause. If I have to explain that, then we better go back to what the true meaning of is is.

Sauron the White · 12-08-2007, 05:42 PM

davem - when the Tolkien Estate permits the re-release of the LOTR books over a four year period with numerous tie-ins with the films, that is OFFICIAL INVOLVEMENT. In fact, thats about as official as you can get in the book and film business. This idea that they did not officially get involved in the films is a self serving fiction.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-08-2007, 07:43 PM

Quote:

All I want is to stop the double talk. When I bring up the fact that CT does not like the films I am told by others here that that is not true - that CT is silent and without a posive position. Then others want to use the opposition and feelings of CT to show that the films were not very good. You cannot have it both ways folks. Pick a side - any side - just stay on it and stay consistent.

I think you're rather misstating the arguments. In the first instance, the observation was that CRT/the Estate did nothing to block, oppose, or hinder the films, nor issue any statements/give interviews rubbishing them or doing anything to harm New Line's revenues. Quite to the contrary: CRT issued a press release saying that he had no problem with people liking the films.

The second instance was CRT forming a personal opinion (like any human being inevitably would) and then (God forbid!) sharing that opinion with family and friends- NOT the public. I did not use that fact to 'show that the films are not very good.' I brought it up to back up my assertion that any rights deal with PJ or Shaye is very, very unlikely when you challenged me on it. I think I now regret saying as much as I did in this public forum. I can't help but wonder if you're not simply miffed that Tolkien's son doesn't think as highly of the movies as you do.

BTW, the Estate only has a say in HarperCollins hardback covers. With paperbacks HC (and HM and Del Rey) can do what they like- which explains the horrible original Ballantines.

Sauron the White · 12-08-2007, 08:26 PM

WCH - I understand your position and respect it - I guess its pointless to keep going on this.

I do have one question which may open up something else. Let us assume that you are correct about the Estates limited powers in determining covers for some of the books. I do not know this as fact and it is a surprise to me since they seem to have all kinds of power about everything from illustrations to calendars. Buts lets assume you are correct. If they are indeed concerned about some of the past covers being horrible, why have they not done anything to get that changed so the problem does not happen again and again? I would guess that periodically the contract comes up for renewal and does not lock them in for eternity. And even if that were not the case I would also guess that HC wants to keep the Tolkien Estate reasonably happy since they are one of their largest long term earners. If they do not now have the power over covers they certainly have been in a position to obtain it.

I had read somewhere that in return for the Estates allowing movie stills to be used on the covers, they in turn received a larger participation in revenue from the sale of those books. Is that accurate based on what you know?

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-08-2007, 09:26 PM

I'm not privy to the contracts, of course, nor would anyone think it's any of my business. I do know that in publishing generally authors almost never have a say in cover design. The peculiar relationship between Unwin/HarperCollins and the Tolkiens stems from JRRT's personal relationship with Sir Stanley and Rayner, and Christopher and Rayner after that, and dates from Tolkien's having drawn the original Hobbit cover, and the core design of the original LR covers. I don't believe it's contractual or any more than an habitual courtesy- and covers UK hardbacks only.

I would be very surprised if HC offered additional compensation, since as it is Tolkien's estate enjoys the hugely lucrative half-profits deal JRRT struck, and I doubt any publisher would pay even more! Besides, HC's David Brawn quotes Christopher as saying "The Lord of the Rings would sell in a brown paper bag."

_____________

The Tolkien Trust

a quick Google turned these beneficiaries up in the first few pages:

Doctors Without Borders
Famine Action
The Simon Wiesenthal Center
Asylum Welcome
Landmine Action
The Woodland Trust
Womankind (equal rights and female-owned businesses in developing countries)
World Wildlife Foundation
Forced Migration Review
Create (fine arts for poor children)
University of Manitoba Medical School
Who Cares?
Mind (rights and independent living support for the mentally ill and handicapped).
Story Museum
Oxford Literary Festival
The Porch Stepping Stone Foundation (homeless relief)
Bath & North East Somerset Community Safety & Drugs Partnership
Royal National Institute of Blind People
St Peter’s Church, Eynsham (new roof)
The Big Issue Foundation (homeless relief)
Breakthrough (breast cancer research)
St Mary's Hall, Stonyhurst College
Prisoners' Education Trust

and 3400 more hits....

Makar · 12-10-2007, 05:05 PM

Sorry to interject myself into this back-and-forth, but I was wondering if there was a thread specifically about the TH sequel (name?) and exactly what PJ has access to? It seems from your discussion here that he would only have access to LotR and TH and thus the LotR prequel/TH sequel would be based on sketchy info at best? Any speculation about the events to be contained in the sequel, assuming that TH ends where the book does and is extra-long because of the portrayal of a reconstructed White Council vs Necromancer fight? Tolkien's time line from LotR gives a rough outline of what could appear in such a film:

1. Sauron returns to Mordor and declares himself
2. Gollum searching for the ring
3. Last White Council meeting
4. Aragorn and Gandalf meet
5. Aragorn's exploits under Thengel and Ecthelion
6. Aragorn and Arwen
7. Gollum meets Shelob
8. Balin in Moria
9. Saruman's use of the Orthanc stone and subsequent ensnaring

Not to mention the birth and childhood of the various hobbit and human characters from LotR

The above-mentioned events are disjointed and separated by many years... I am suspicious of such a film

12-08-2007, 05:03 PM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Not my reasoning Shakespeare's.... but clearly I am dishonest for referring to the car I have had for a couple of months as my new car....it was built in 2003.... so no new is not new period to speakers of English. It is one "signifier" more than one thing signified. Death isn't that clear cut either these days either or pregnancy come to that ... People are free not to take a position since we don't live in Airstrip One. Yours is clearly to bash a decent man for allegedly not liking films he had no contol over. In the scale of crimes it isn't child murder is it. I don't care whether CT liked the films or not. Why do you since you clearly do not respect him? Clearly he can do nothing right in your eyes. I provided a link to the charity but clearly funding an archive for the author is a misuse of funds. You claim to know CT's opinions as fact. Know better than someone who actually knows him. You seem to think he should have withdrawn his father's works from sale else he is a hypocrite.... ridiculous. Really so what if the book sales went up because of the film? I bought a new set becasue the old ones fel apart and bought others because I happened to have the money in 2001-2 that I didn't have as a teenager. So my pounds count to wards you bonanza but I wasn't motivated by the films. I onlymanaged to sit through the second two once..... even when they came on TV I found better stuff to watch and they seem dated already. The Jackson films will I think be as the Nahum Tate "improvements" on King Lear - popular at the time but little more than curiosities now. Tolkien will owe no more to Jackson than Shakespeare does to Tate. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

12-08-2007, 09:26 PM	#6
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	I'm not privy to the contracts, of course, nor would anyone think it's any of my business. I do know that in publishing generally authors almost never have a say in cover design. The peculiar relationship between Unwin/HarperCollins and the Tolkiens stems from JRRT's personal relationship with Sir Stanley and Rayner, and Christopher and Rayner after that, and dates from Tolkien's having drawn the original Hobbit cover, and the core design of the original LR covers. I don't believe it's contractual or any more than an habitual courtesy- and covers UK hardbacks only. I would be very surprised if HC offered additional compensation, since as it is Tolkien's estate enjoys the hugely lucrative half-profits deal JRRT struck, and I doubt any publisher would pay even more! Besides, HC's David Brawn quotes Christopher as saying "The Lord of the Rings would sell in a brown paper bag." _____________ The Tolkien Trust a quick Google turned these beneficiaries up in the first few pages: Doctors Without Borders Famine Action The Simon Wiesenthal Center Asylum Welcome Landmine Action The Woodland Trust Womankind (equal rights and female-owned businesses in developing countries) World Wildlife Foundation Forced Migration Review Create (fine arts for poor children) University of Manitoba Medical School Who Cares? Mind (rights and independent living support for the mentally ill and handicapped). Story Museum Oxford Literary Festival The Porch Stepping Stone Foundation (homeless relief) Bath & North East Somerset Community Safety & Drugs Partnership Royal National Institute of Blind People St Peter’s Church, Eynsham (new roof) The Big Issue Foundation (homeless relief) Breakthrough (breast cancer research) St Mary's Hall, Stonyhurst College Prisoners' Education Trust and 3400 more hits.... __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-10-2007, 05:05 PM	#7
Makar Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oklahom Posts: 44	Btw Sorry to interject myself into this back-and-forth, but I was wondering if there was a thread specifically about the TH sequel (name?) and exactly what PJ has access to? It seems from your discussion here that he would only have access to LotR and TH and thus the LotR prequel/TH sequel would be based on sketchy info at best? Any speculation about the events to be contained in the sequel, assuming that TH ends where the book does and is extra-long because of the portrayal of a reconstructed White Council vs Necromancer fight? Tolkien's time line from LotR gives a rough outline of what could appear in such a film: 1. Sauron returns to Mordor and declares himself 2. Gollum searching for the ring 3. Last White Council meeting 4. Aragorn and Gandalf meet 5. Aragorn's exploits under Thengel and Ecthelion 6. Aragorn and Arwen 7. Gollum meets Shelob 8. Balin in Moria 9. Saruman's use of the Orthanc stone and subsequent ensnaring Not to mention the birth and childhood of the various hobbit and human characters from LotR The above-mentioned events are disjointed and separated by many years... I am suspicious of such a film

12-08-2007, 05:26 PM	#2
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Mithalwen - I am not bashing anyone, especially CTolkien. I think he has done fine work and am glad I was around to purchase and enjoy it.... several times over. This discussion started today when William CH said that CT would not allow Jackson use of anything outside of what New Line already owned if he was the last person on earth. Thats pretty strong. What made this interesting is that right here in this very forum many people have told me that CT was silent about the films and took no position neither pro or con. I consider William Cloud Hicklin to be an intelligent and well informed Tolkien reader and fan. In fact, in my humble opinion, I would place him in the top ten percent of intelligence here. So when he writes such a strong statement and seems to know the mind of CT, I stop and listen and ask why and where he got this from? It seems to me that you can parse the language all you want and reduce yourself to the level of a courtroom lawyer arguing about the meaning of what is is. Most people think they already know. That is probably because they use common sense, live in the real world where people do not talk like Harvard debaters who challenge every definition if it does not fit their preconceived arguments. I know what new is. I know what a new book is. I know that COH was by no means the first new Tolkien novel in thirty years. That is simply advertising fraud. And if the Tolkien Estate had any imput on that then shame on them for being part of it. You say I claim to know the opinion of Christopher Tolkien. No I do not because I read others here saying many different things on the same subject. But I am trying to find out. And CT is no more a private person than Stephen King is. Despite the seclusion and demand for privacy, his name is out there like it or not. You cannot be that famous and then put on the shroud of a private person and think you can hide behind that. It just does not work that way. Very few people in the real world cares if CT is the Tolkien Estate of how the Estate is constituted, how they make decisions or what CT has to do with it. Christoper Tolkien is Christopher Tolkien and is a whole lot more of a public person than I or most of us ever will hope to be. There is a difference between funding charities for the poor and funding academic or scholarly research for your own cause. If I have to explain that, then we better go back to what the true meaning of is is.

12-08-2007, 05:42 PM	#3
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	davem - when the Tolkien Estate permits the re-release of the LOTR books over a four year period with numerous tie-ins with the films, that is OFFICIAL INVOLVEMENT. In fact, thats about as official as you can get in the book and film business. This idea that they did not officially get involved in the films is a self serving fiction.

12-08-2007, 08:26 PM	#5
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	WCH - I understand your position and respect it - I guess its pointless to keep going on this. I do have one question which may open up something else. Let us assume that you are correct about the Estates limited powers in determining covers for some of the books. I do not know this as fact and it is a surprise to me since they seem to have all kinds of power about everything from illustrations to calendars. Buts lets assume you are correct. If they are indeed concerned about some of the past covers being horrible, why have they not done anything to get that changed so the problem does not happen again and again? I would guess that periodically the contract comes up for renewal and does not lock them in for eternity. And even if that were not the case I would also guess that HC wants to keep the Tolkien Estate reasonably happy since they are one of their largest long term earners. If they do not now have the power over covers they certainly have been in a position to obtain it. I had read somewhere that in return for the Estates allowing movie stills to be used on the covers, they in turn received a larger participation in revenue from the sale of those books. Is that accurate based on what you know?