The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

... none the less, at the time Tolkien wrote the chapter Inglor was the founder of Nargothrond, not just 'some Elf', and I just don't see any indication at all that Gildor was ever conceived as descendant of Finwe. ...

Right, I'm aware that Inglor was Felagund, but with respect to the later context, Inglor can be 'some Elf' (is all that I mean), no matter what Tolkien thought when he was writing the chapter.

I'll add that one of my comments above refers to a distinction in Quenya (better explained by Nerwen), posted because of what had been said earlier in the thread (including the Quenya examples), so as to try to distinguish between the Q. nominative plural marker and the Q. genitive.

That said, Gildor Inglorion would be Sindarin in my opinion. In short the genitive in Sindarin is another matter, but I still think we have the patronymic here in any case.

[Nerwen]

Yes, the name Gildor is Sindarin, but that doesn't make any difference.

His second name still means "son or descendant of Inglor". So either it's a different Inglor, or this is an unusually broad use of the patronymic. Or maybe he was adopted?

[lindil]

In http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2021 I posted {what seems to apply as well then as now} this:

Well I, surprisingly got to the end of this thread w/ no one expressing what to me seemed the obvious. I thought for sure I would be pre-empted. but then again maybe I am just plain wrong!

my 2 cents;

Gildor searched his heart as to what he should do for Frodo and did it.

Just because you can help someone is it always right? Gildor clearly sensed something big was afoot and he hesitated to set anything in motion that was not meant to be.

Gildor knew that the Dunedain kept watch {aragorn was almost certainly one of those warned by Gildor's highly effective communications network.
All told we know it reached Aragorn, Bombadil and Rivendell, not bad for a slacking, racist wimp.


No I think Gildor Inglorion was practicing what the taoists call Wu-Wei. Acting w/out self-interest. I believe although puzzled and alarmed by the situation he weighed his possible responses in his heart and saw that it was not his or his companies part to escort them further.


But let us look at what the brief meeting did accomplish.

*The ring saved from immediate peril.
*Hobbits greatly heartend and [ Frodo and Sam at least] greatly enlightened.
*Frodo was pronounced an 'Elf-Friend' before he even left the Shire [ I believe the Elf-Friend title also had a certain blessing that went w/ it. like Faramir's staff.

*He also asked that Elbereth's Stars shine upon his road [which they undoubtedly did].

*set them up w/ food better than anything we will probably ever eat - vegetarian too if I recall.

*gave Frodo counsel to take friends [ the counsel of which helped sway him when the conspiracy was unmasked].

*Implemented the emergency contact system along the old Arthedain/Cardolan border.

not bad in my book. Actually the Gildor and co. scene has always been along w/ lothlorien my favorite in the book. I always come away so inspired I can not imagine Gildor being anything other than perfectly in-tune.


So, again Gildor did exactly what he needed to do. Just like Elrond [ a more common lightening rod for the ' he/Rivendell did not help enough' question] did not go to Mordor himself. Gildor and Elrond where wise enough to be where they were most needed and mature enough to do their part and no more, no less.

btw 'house of Inglorion' almost certainly means not 'a son of' [ in which case he proably would have been King after Gil-Galad] but 'of the household of'.

And possibly a generation or 2 removed at that. Still as Finrod was one of the noblest [ The noblest in my book] of the Noldorin princes, even being his butler would have been a good job.

[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

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[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes, the name Gildor is Sindarin, but that doesn't make any difference. His second name still means "son or descendant of Inglor". So either it's a different Inglor, or this is an unusually broad use of the patronymic. Or maybe he was adopted?

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

Technically the genitive in Sindarin wasn't really addressed, even though it would not change my mind about Inglorion.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, off the top of my head I can think of 3 Sindarin/Noldorin examples

Ereinion 'descendant of kings'
Eldarion 'descendant of Elves' (might be Quenya)
Arathornion 'son of Arathorn'

However, these date from the late or post-LR period. When did Noldorin abandon the go-, bo- prefix as a patronymic?

[Galin]

I would say Eldarion is Quenya and might contain a patronymic.

Instead of Eldar-ion with a plural 'Elves' I think (not sure) it's possible we might have Elda-ri(g)-on with *rig- 'crown' plus a masculine, as similarly, perhaps, in Telperion, or more certainly the element 'crown' in Sindarin Galadriel 'Maiden crowned with gleaming hair'

On the other matter, good question. I can say without much delving (being lazy) that at the time Etymologies was being constructed go- was said to be used for patronymics in Ilkorin (go-Thingol).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

Right, I agree that's what it means. I mean the whole name is Sindarin, and the point I was making is that the explanation above is in a Quenya context. In other words, is -ion also a genitive in Sindarin?

No, Sindarin doesn't have genitive endings– it uses word-order and prepositions instead. Theoretically, "Inglorion" could just be a descriptive name or title, c.f. "Thalion"– except that as far as I'm aware it doesn't mean anything.

(I think "Inglor" is in fact meant to be a Sindarin adaption of a Quenya name.)

So I guess we're still left with Inglorion = "son or descendant of Inglor". Perhaps it's meant in a non-literal way?

By the way, "Eldarion" is definitely Quenya.