Hurin and despair - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morwen Tindomerel · 05-09-2003, 08:44 AM

The 'accounted among the Valar' thing is from the earliest versions of the Legend in Lost Tales, and IMO makes little sense.

I mean *what* has Turin done to earn such a privilege? having failed to master himself and his doom and killed himself in a fit of despair, (mortal sin that is). Indications are Tolkien dropped that particular concept as his vision of the Valar, the Fates of Men, etc. evolved.

However later versions do retain the 'legend' of Turin returning from death, (Halls of Mandos or beyond the Circles of the World) and slaying Morgoth at the End. I find that hard to buy too, but maybe Turin improves after a few thousand millenia of purgatory.

As for the issue of pride; Frodo also answers Faramir 'proudly' to Sam's, and apparently Tolkien's approval. I think in this case, as in Hurin's, 'proudly' is a description of their comportment, expressing both courage and determination to resist, not of of their inner state which must have been one of controlled terror.

According to my Catholic Dictionary the sin of pride expresses itself as contempt for lawful authority and for others. Hurin shows no sign of any such failing previous to his captivity, his behavior afterward is more questionable but I believe rooted in a bitter, (and not entirely unjustified) sense of betrayal rather than 'pride'.

This is not to say Hurin is entirely innocent of wrong. He is certainly obsessed with vengeance, which however understandable given his circumstances still does him no credit.

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

05-09-2003, 08:44 AM	#11
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	The 'accounted among the Valar' thing is from the earliest versions of the Legend in Lost Tales, and IMO makes little sense. I mean what has Turin done to earn such a privilege? having failed to master himself and his doom and killed himself in a fit of despair, (mortal sin that is). Indications are Tolkien dropped that particular concept as his vision of the Valar, the Fates of Men, etc. evolved. However later versions do retain the 'legend' of Turin returning from death, (Halls of Mandos or beyond the Circles of the World) and slaying Morgoth at the End. I find that hard to buy too, but maybe Turin improves after a few thousand millenia of purgatory. As for the issue of pride; Frodo also answers Faramir 'proudly' to Sam's, and apparently Tolkien's approval. I think in this case, as in Hurin's, 'proudly' is a description of their comportment, expressing both courage and determination to resist, not of of their inner state which must have been one of controlled terror. According to my Catholic Dictionary the sin of pride expresses itself as contempt for lawful authority and for others. Hurin shows no sign of any such failing previous to his captivity, his behavior afterward is more questionable but I believe rooted in a bitter, (and not entirely unjustified) sense of betrayal rather than 'pride'. This is not to say Hurin is entirely innocent of wrong. He is certainly obsessed with vengeance, which however understandable given his circumstances still does him no credit. [ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]