Subject for the Second film?

[davem]

As I said, those statements from Adam that I gave prove nothing at all - except that Adam is not completely opposed to the existence of movies. Personally speaking I have no desire to see any more Tolkien movies like the LotR farrago (yes, StW, that's my opinion).

Even assuming that Bailie & Michael George follow CT's wishes that doesn't translate to never - in fact, while my life will remain perfectly complete & fulfilled without ever seeing another Tolkien movie, I can't see that objecting to any movie adaptation on principle is admirable - anymore than the medieval Church's objection to the printing of Bibles. Yes, the books are great art, but cinema may produce great art too. That's why I say that a lot will depend on what we see on screen in 2010. Its not impossible that CT could have liked a movie adaptation of LotR - unfortunately the one he saw was Jacksons. What if he'd actually liked it (ie if it had been of sufficient quality)? I'm assuming that he went with an open mind. Also he was quite happy to contribute to the BBC radio adaptation of LotR, to the extent of being sent the script for approval & recording a cassette of pronunciations. This alone says to me that he is not totally opposed to dramatisation of his father's works.

All I'm arguing is 'never say never' - given the right circumstances, & I wouldn't be shocked if the film rights to Tolkien's other writings were sold in the not too distant future - though at the same time I'm not expecting an announcement next week...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Also he was quite happy to contribute to the BBC radio adaptation of LotR, to the extent of being sent the script for approval & recording a cassette of pronunciations. This alone says to me that he is not totally opposed to dramatisation of his father's works.

Interesting you should bring that up: remember, CT's press release said he thought his father's writing unsuitable for visual dramatic adaptation. Why this should be an important distinction I haven't been told: it may relate to the strictures JRRT gives in On Fairy-Stories; but it might well relate to the fact that a radio-play is still a medium based on words.

[Sauron the White]

Somebody here - perhaps davem or WCH - told a story a while back about JRRT himself attending a school play of THE HOBBIT. If I remember right, Tolkien beamed broad smiles when they they kept exactly to a scene or some bit of dialogue but became displeased and agitated whenever they deviated in any way. I guess that speaks volumes as why Hollywood is loathe to give authors anything approaching control when their work is translated from print to film.

Maybe that is why he enjoyed the radio production so much. Things do not have to be so heavily cut given that you have much more time and can serialize things over weeks or months. On the radio you can have a narrator which is much closer to a book. And this is just a guess on my part - but I bet its much cheaper to use the book as a script where possible given that you save money from writers having to rewrite anything.

I have a feeling that given this choice

Film A - very loyal in both script and spirit to Tolkien almost to the point of slavishness. At the box office it barely makes it money back and people find it too long with too many talking heads and dull parts.

Film B - Jackson action treatment with Jackson big box office results.

I tend to think that both JRRT and CT would vote loudly and often for the A choice.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Film A - very loyal in both script and spirit to Tolkien almost to the point of slavishness. At the box office it barely makes it money back and people find it too long with too many talking heads and dull parts.

Still the same old strawman.....

It is entirely possible to make a successful, dramatic, exciting adaptation of the LR (w/o 'too many talking heads and dull parts') without resorting to PJ's distortions and crudities- and above all, PJ's total cluelessness. Personally I would love to see such a film. It's the film I was waiting to see back in 2000-01. Boy, was I disappointed.

I guess that speaks volumes as why Hollywood is loathe to give authors anything approaching control when their work is translated from print to film.

And also speaks volumes about the lack of interest the Estate would have in your 'collaboration' proposal- technically they might have some representative on set, but his presence would be meaningless since the director can ignore him at will. So under the deal you are proposing, the Estate would give up rights they own without getting anything in return.

Incidentally, Jo Rowling's creative control doesn't seem to have hurt the HP films' boxoffice.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Maybe that is why he enjoyed the radio production so much. Things do not have to be so heavily cut given that you have much more time and can serialize things over weeks or months. .

The radio series took 13 hours - about the same time as the SEE of LotR, so they had the same time. The real problem with the movies was that the writers were convinced they could improve on Tolkien's work.

[Sauron the White]

And also speaks volumes about the lack of interest the Estate would have in your 'collaboration' proposal- technically they might have some representative on set, but his presence would be meaningless since the director can ignore him at will. So under the deal you are proposing, the Estate would give up rights they own without getting anything in return.

I have always been taught that if something is being decided that is going to have some impact on you that it is always a good thing to have a seat at that table and have some input, to be able to make your case. That is much better than hearing about it afterwards from people who did not even bother to hear you out.

My idea - of both parties sitting down- with the Estate getting an adviser on set and the rights holders getting the right to take what is in the Appendicies and expand it in line with what is in other JRRT sources for accuracy - is not perfect. But what is?

Rowling is a living author who was red hot and at the top of her game when she sold those rights. You can hardly compare her position with that of JRRT in the late 1960's. Yes, his books had something of a following - but he was hardly in the position of Rowling. ANd besides, JRRT himself decided in favor of money over Art. That was his choice free and clear.

My idea would give the Estate a seat at the table, a voice when the writing and filming was done. It would not give them control but it would allow them to give advice, make a case, work with the writers and others to come up with alternatives to things like Osgiliath, beating of Gollum, and other things that drive purists crazy.

Perhaps I believe too much in people. I tend to believe that when peope of fair mind and good intention work together, better things happen than when they do not.

In this world very few people end up like Rowling with the ability to dictate the menu, help cook the food, dictate how it is served, and then get the head seat at the banquet table. That is rare and does not come along too often even for the best of us.

In the LOTR films the Estate had exactly zero input. Their thought, feelings, suggestions, objections, were never known or made known because all the movies were made without them being there in any way shape or form.

Again, I do think it comes back to that skit on Da Ali G Show where Sasha Baron Cohen as Ali G proposes a deal to a prospective book publisher "Hey, you know about those LOTR movies? Get this..... LOTR... the books!!! The movies made lots of money, the books can too". Or something like that.

In the minds of the worldwide public, the LOTR is both the books and the movies, or even just the movies since more people bought tickets to those than have bought the books over the last fifty years. For better or worse, they are linked together in a symbiotic relationship. They may not be one, but they sure are twisted together in many people minds.

This situation is going to go on for at least five more years with the next two films and perhaps longer. In fact, that intermeshing is only going to get stronger because now you will have five films over ten years instead of three over five years.

Giving an expert selected by the Estate a seat at the production meetings in all phases of production would be a very good thing in taking a step towards a more authentic Middle-earth.

[davem]

The only interest studios have is in The Sil & CoH. That would allow them to knock out a trilogy based around the Three Great Tales, with background material from the history (ie a Beren & Luthien movie would bring in Valinor & the creation & theft of the Silmarils, CoH would bring in the Noldorin rebellion & the death of the Trees & a Gondolin story would complete the trilogy with the war of wrath & the fall of Melkor.

I think the real incentive for the Estate to sell the rights is that it will liberate them from constant hassle, & accusations of mean spiritedness from movie 'fans'. They should offer up the film rights including a veto for anything that they find grossly unacceptable, let the movies be made & then, hopefully, we can forget all this nonsense & get back to Tolkien the writer.

[Sauron the White]

That has my vote. Let me rush out and pour a nice tall cool glass of milk so I can drink to that. Its amazing what rational minds can do when everyone is in a win win position.

[Galendor]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

My idea would give the Estate a seat at the table, a voice when the writing and filming was done. It would not give them control but it would allow them to give advice, make a case, work with the writers and others to come up with alternatives to things like Osgiliath, beating of Gollum, and other things that drive purists crazy.

Perhaps I believe too much in people. I tend to believe that when peope of fair mind and good intention work together, better things happen than when they do not.

I agree in principle, but the Tolkien Estate probably realized "in for a penny, in for a pound" and kept their distance from Jackson's movies for such a reason. Imagine what could/would happen if they agreed to be impotent "advisors" on the future The Hobbit movies. Jackson apparently wants these movies to directly tie in to his LOTR movies - I believe he will be motivated to include characters such as his Legolas, Arwen, Elrond, and Aragorn.

So imagine a worse-case scenario where Jackson is planning the death of Smaug. Who is this "Bard" character he asks - he has little use in MY movies! My audience wants to see Orlando Bloom as Legolas! He has "star power". It would be better if he killed Smaug - Legolas can ride in standing on the back of an eagle, do a death defying aerial leap onto Smaug's head, and deliver his signature triple-point-blank arrows into the head kill-shot! The Tolkien Estate "advisors" might cry no, you cannot do this. But Jackson could counter by saying this is best for my movies and my main audience, since they love movie Legolas. And there would be nothing the Tolkien Estate could do to stop it.

Then, no doubt, New Line and Jackson would still tout the fact that the movies were made with direct consultation from the Tolkien Estate, who would be ashamed of their pointless involvement.

STW, do you think Jackson is "of fair mind and good intention" in regards to these movies? He may have good intentions, I do not doubt it, but surely his primary intention is to make money, and have these future films serve as prequel vehicles to his LOTR movies. These intentions may cause him to take liberties with The Hobbit and LOTR book appendices that the Tolkien Estate would not approve of. So I can understand why they would simply not want any part in the creation of the movies.

[Sauron the White]

Galendor ... I cannot argue with the scenario you present and I guess anything is possible when money is involved. Perhaps I am trusting far too much in the fact that everyone - in the end- wants what will be best for the public. And I guess that both sides could see than very differently.

I am not a genius and my ideas are not perfect (as others keep pointing out) but I would hope something can be done that would be a win win situation for both the Tolkien Estate concerns and film rights holders.

Having an Tolkien expert in on the film process cannot be a bad thing.... can it?
Having accuracy and more complete detail of those bridge events hinted at in the Appendicies but dealt more fully elsewhere cannot be a bad thing ... can it?

I am feeling like Rodney King asking "why can't we all just get along". Well, peace on Middle-earth and good will to Men...
and Elves ....
and Dwarves ....
okay... Orcs too.