HOB - Chapters into Scenes Weekly - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 12-31-2007, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folwren

I thought of that, too...but it almost seems to tame a beginning for movies no adays and for such a movie. A dragon coming and wracking ruin and destruction seems a perfect beginning! ... in my opinion, that is.

But a hobbit smoking a pipe in front of his door step just as Tolkien intended would be fine, too.

Well, I thought about the draqgon factor, but it just seemed too, well dramatic. I guess that it was also that dramatic in FotR when the prologue goes straight to the Shire( in the EE, which is what I have open up to Bilbo and his little speech about Concerning Hobbits) but the thing is, I always skip that part and is waisting valuable time.

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Meneltarmacil · 12-31-2007, 07:37 PM

Well, I'd say the first scene ought to be Bilbo being visited by Gandalf. A flashback at the beginning would really take away from the Dwarves' telling their tale, and it would ruin much of the surprise and mystery that the Unexpected Party would provide. The part in which the Dwarves recount the coming of Smaug is the perfect place to put a flashback.

In the flashback, though, Smaug would best be done as a silhouette, or flames coming from off camera. Seeing the Dragon later on from Bilbo's eyes, only then seeing a full glimpse of Smaug, would be more in line with the book, as the reader is supposed to be seeing the adventure from Bilbo's perspective.

Nogrod · 12-31-2007, 09:01 PM

Smaug's attack on the dwarves would be following a proven method of making an opening. It takes the viewer along with action and the faces introduced there will then be recognized as the dwarves reach Bag End. All nice and shiny. And yes, after the titles it should be Bilbo in front of his door puffing his pipe and Gandalf coming to meet him... Or maybe making the first scene coincide with the entrance of the dwarves? So Bilbo sitting there smoking and then the first dwarf to come forwards... That's how the film people cut things short: do not make two separate introductions (two times different beings come to visit Bilbo) but put all the entrances to one and a same lot.

But why don't we start with Gollum? Let's have a nice teaser-spot in the beginning where Gollum does some mischief to the goblins and escapes with the help of the Ring? After that we get the titles and then we'll have Bilbo smoking and receiving his unexpected guests... And as the dwarves eat and sing they also tell their story (singing it actually - and the viewers are given the images while they sing - some cuts in the middle of the song to the dwarves singing in the cozyness of Bilbo's Bag End!). Not bad either?

Folwren · 12-31-2007, 09:34 PM

Oh! But I think Gollum should be something that is left as a surprise! Besides, showing Gollum at the beginning of the movie will be confusing...he doesn't have that pivotal part in this story....it'd be pointless. If there is any introduction, any prologue, it should have to do with the dwarves and/or the dragon - not with Gollum.

Macalaure · 01-01-2008, 10:11 AM

Starting the film like the book is probably not a favorable thing. The Unexpected Party is maybe the lightest part of the book, even when a lot of childishness is removed. A more dark prologue could win us the favor of the "ignorant part of the audience", so that we could then get away with making the Party more faithful to the book without disappointing some from the beginning on.

I was going to suggest a similar thing as Nogrod just suggested:
One very important scene is how Gollum loses the ring and I can't think of a way to insert it before the Riddles in the Dark part. It also cannot be omitted because that would leave a plot hole. Why not make it the opening scene then? It would be a dark beginning to see Gollum lose the ring while killing an Orc child, that's true, but it would be followed and balanced by the lighter Unexpected Party. Another benefit is that it would connect Hobbit and LotR with maybe the most recognisable character and the most recognisable item of both books. The audience is going to expect Gollum anyway, so leaving him as a surprise isn't going to work.

One thing that I think should not be done is show Smaug in a prologue. That would be a too much of a spoiler. The dragon needs to remain a mystery that is only named and not shown until Bilbo finally meets him.

The bit of dwarven history is very interesting and should definitely be included, but as others have already said, I don't see the necessity to do that in a prologue. We can find some quiet place later where Thorin or Balin can give Bilbo a small history lecture.

Nazgûl-king · 01-01-2008, 12:34 PM

I like the idea of starting with Gollum losing the ring, maybe they could do something like; start with Gollum rowing in his boat, then he sneaks up on land behind a goblin and starts choking it, and as he is choking it the ring escapes him, and we see the ring bouncing from the rocks and then landing on the ground. Then the scene could end with a shot Dol Goldur in the distance, and then we see the opening title and move on to The Shire with Bilbo in front of his door.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 01-01-2008, 02:27 PM

Gollum appears once! How can you open a movie with someone that appears once? It just doesn't make sense!

12-31-2007, 07:37 PM	#2
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	Well, I'd say the first scene ought to be Bilbo being visited by Gandalf. A flashback at the beginning would really take away from the Dwarves' telling their tale, and it would ruin much of the surprise and mystery that the Unexpected Party would provide. The part in which the Dwarves recount the coming of Smaug is the perfect place to put a flashback. In the flashback, though, Smaug would best be done as a silhouette, or flames coming from off camera. Seeing the Dragon later on from Bilbo's eyes, only then seeing a full glimpse of Smaug, would be more in line with the book, as the reader is supposed to be seeing the adventure from Bilbo's perspective. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

12-31-2007, 09:01 PM	#3
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Smaug's attack on the dwarves would be following a proven method of making an opening. It takes the viewer along with action and the faces introduced there will then be recognized as the dwarves reach Bag End. All nice and shiny. And yes, after the titles it should be Bilbo in front of his door puffing his pipe and Gandalf coming to meet him... Or maybe making the first scene coincide with the entrance of the dwarves? So Bilbo sitting there smoking and then the first dwarf to come forwards... That's how the film people cut things short: do not make two separate introductions (two times different beings come to visit Bilbo) but put all the entrances to one and a same lot. But why don't we start with Gollum? Let's have a nice teaser-spot in the beginning where Gollum does some mischief to the goblins and escapes with the help of the Ring? After that we get the titles and then we'll have Bilbo smoking and receiving his unexpected guests... And as the dwarves eat and sing they also tell their story (singing it actually - and the viewers are given the images while they sing - some cuts in the middle of the song to the dwarves singing in the cozyness of Bilbo's Bag End!). Not bad either? __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

12-31-2007, 09:34 PM	#4
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Oh! But I think Gollum should be something that is left as a surprise! Besides, showing Gollum at the beginning of the movie will be confusing...he doesn't have that pivotal part in this story....it'd be pointless. If there is any introduction, any prologue, it should have to do with the dwarves and/or the dragon - not with Gollum. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-01-2008, 02:27 PM	#7
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Gollum appears once! How can you open a movie with someone that appears once? It just doesn't make sense! __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead. Last edited by TheGreatElvenWarrior; 01-17-2008 at 09:52 PM.

01-01-2008, 10:11 AM	#5
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	Starting the film like the book is probably not a favorable thing. The Unexpected Party is maybe the lightest part of the book, even when a lot of childishness is removed. A more dark prologue could win us the favor of the "ignorant part of the audience", so that we could then get away with making the Party more faithful to the book without disappointing some from the beginning on. I was going to suggest a similar thing as Nogrod just suggested: One very important scene is how Gollum loses the ring and I can't think of a way to insert it before the Riddles in the Dark part. It also cannot be omitted because that would leave a plot hole. Why not make it the opening scene then? It would be a dark beginning to see Gollum lose the ring while killing an Orc child, that's true, but it would be followed and balanced by the lighter Unexpected Party. Another benefit is that it would connect Hobbit and LotR with maybe the most recognisable character and the most recognisable item of both books. The audience is going to expect Gollum anyway, so leaving him as a surprise isn't going to work. One thing that I think should not be done is show Smaug in a prologue. That would be a too much of a spoiler. The dragon needs to remain a mystery that is only named and not shown until Bilbo finally meets him. The bit of dwarven history is very interesting and should definitely be included, but as others have already said, I don't see the necessity to do that in a prologue. We can find some quiet place later where Thorin or Balin can give Bilbo a small history lecture.

01-01-2008, 12:34 PM	#6
Nazgûl-king Wight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 104	I like the idea of starting with Gollum losing the ring, maybe they could do something like; start with Gollum rowing in his boat, then he sneaks up on land behind a goblin and starts choking it, and as he is choking it the ring escapes him, and we see the ring bouncing from the rocks and then landing on the ground. Then the scene could end with a shot Dol Goldur in the distance, and then we see the opening title and move on to The Shire with Bilbo in front of his door.