Treachery of Men Discussion/Planning Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gwathagor · 01-07-2008, 07:12 PM

Well, I suppose we COULD be conventional...

Child of the 7th Age · 01-08-2008, 12:20 AM

Gwathagor,

"Assassin's Creed"? Hmm.

Sorry for my denseness. I need some help here. I'm very familiar with the historical Assassins, hired Shi'ite killers of the middle ages who allied with Saladin during the Crusades. I've also heard of the recent videogame Assassin's Creed, which features an imaginery assassin, but I've never played it. I'm not sure how either of these relate to hovering between life and death.

I'm also not sure about a post-death metaphysical/dream struggle in the context of Tolkien. The author is so adament about no one knowing where men go when they leave the circles of the world. I suppose there's the possibility of some dead souls hanging on within Arda like the men of Dunharrow in LotR, or the houseless Elves. But again I'm not sure how this would relate to Khandr. You need to convince me that this is believable within the context of Middle-earth before we start to post. I have no problem with unconventional, but it needs to fit loosely within the context of Tolkien. If you can explain in those terms, I'm more than willing to have Khandr adapt.

Gwathagor · 01-08-2008, 01:27 PM

In Assassin's Creed, after you assassinate your target, there is a short cut scene depicting a conversation between you (the assassin) and the victim. This conversation does not take place in the physical world, though. It's as though they converse in a kind of limbo/spirit world, as the dead man's spirit is still hovering over his body, having not yet departed for the realm of the dead.

If it were any other character, I would agree that this wouldn't fit Middle-earth at all. However, Jord IS a Maia (and a vampire), and so I think we could get away with her talking to dead people.

But, it's just a suggestion.

Folwren · 01-08-2008, 01:37 PM

Depending on what you have in mind, Gwathagor, you could have the discussion before he dies.

Gwathagor · 01-08-2008, 01:39 PM

Sure.

Child of the 7th Age · 01-08-2008, 04:32 PM

Thanks Gwathagor for making that clearer, also Folwren with her idea. How about this? We could use Tolkien's concept of Ósanwe and have the exchange of thoughts take place as Khandr lies dying.... fëa to fëa so to speak. I could envision such an exchange between a Maia and a human. Frodo certainly picked up vibes from Gandalf.

I am still a bit uncertain exactly what that exchange of thoughts would be. Khandr is a decent man but I don't think he could mentally challenge a Maia in any way. I suppose that Jord could reveal to him the full extent of the treason that will be taking place on the battlefield. That would certainly depress him! What general direction do you see this exchange going? Feel free to reply on the thread or send me a pm if you want to get into details.

Gwathagor · 01-08-2008, 07:43 PM

That's exactly what I had in mind. Because she's mean and cruel and more than a bit self-satisfied, Jord can give Khandr a vision of what is to come, with the intent that he dies despairing. Maybe we can think of some last glimmer of hope, something positive, for Khandr to grasp as he dies, so that Jord's present victory is not absolute. What do you think?

01-07-2008, 07:12 PM	#1
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	Well, I suppose we COULD be conventional... __________________ Stories and songs.

01-08-2008, 12:20 AM	#2
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Gwathagor, "Assassin's Creed"? Hmm. Sorry for my denseness. I need some help here. I'm very familiar with the historical Assassins, hired Shi'ite killers of the middle ages who allied with Saladin during the Crusades. I've also heard of the recent videogame Assassin's Creed, which features an imaginery assassin, but I've never played it. I'm not sure how either of these relate to hovering between life and death. I'm also not sure about a post-death metaphysical/dream struggle in the context of Tolkien. The author is so adament about no one knowing where men go when they leave the circles of the world. I suppose there's the possibility of some dead souls hanging on within Arda like the men of Dunharrow in LotR, or the houseless Elves. But again I'm not sure how this would relate to Khandr. You need to convince me that this is believable within the context of Middle-earth before we start to post. I have no problem with unconventional, but it needs to fit loosely within the context of Tolkien. If you can explain in those terms, I'm more than willing to have Khandr adapt. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-08-2008, 01:27 PM	#3
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	In Assassin's Creed, after you assassinate your target, there is a short cut scene depicting a conversation between you (the assassin) and the victim. This conversation does not take place in the physical world, though. It's as though they converse in a kind of limbo/spirit world, as the dead man's spirit is still hovering over his body, having not yet departed for the realm of the dead. If it were any other character, I would agree that this wouldn't fit Middle-earth at all. However, Jord IS a Maia (and a vampire), and so I think we could get away with her talking to dead people. But, it's just a suggestion. __________________ Stories and songs.

01-08-2008, 01:37 PM	#4
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Depending on what you have in mind, Gwathagor, you could have the discussion before he dies. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-08-2008, 01:39 PM	#5
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	Sure. __________________ Stories and songs.

01-08-2008, 04:32 PM	#6
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Thanks Gwathagor for making that clearer, also Folwren with her idea. How about this? We could use Tolkien's concept of Ósanwe and have the exchange of thoughts take place as Khandr lies dying.... fëa to fëa so to speak. I could envision such an exchange between a Maia and a human. Frodo certainly picked up vibes from Gandalf. I am still a bit uncertain exactly what that exchange of thoughts would be. Khandr is a decent man but I don't think he could mentally challenge a Maia in any way. I suppose that Jord could reveal to him the full extent of the treason that will be taking place on the battlefield. That would certainly depress him! What general direction do you see this exchange going? Feel free to reply on the thread or send me a pm if you want to get into details. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-08-2008, 07:43 PM	#7
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	That's exactly what I had in mind. Because she's mean and cruel and more than a bit self-satisfied, Jord can give Khandr a vision of what is to come, with the intent that he dies despairing. Maybe we can think of some last glimmer of hope, something positive, for Khandr to grasp as he dies, so that Jord's present victory is not absolute. What do you think? __________________ Stories and songs.