Treachery of Men Discussion/Planning Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 01-09-2008, 01:44 AM

Would this work?

As Khandr lies dying, overwhelmed by the grim news that Jord has conveyed to him, he desperately reaches out for another fea to pass on what he has learned. He can do no more than briefly feel a hint of Thorn's mind and then immediately dies. But this would set up the scene for a confrontation of some sort...whatever sort you want....between Thorn and Jord.

It might also make sense that, since Thorn already knows that Khandr is in deep trouble, he might actually be making an attempt to "read" the latter from a distance and would therefore respond more readily when the old Borrim diplomat reaches out for help.

Folwren · 01-09-2008, 08:41 AM

If Jord finds out about Thorn and knows that he is knows somewhat about the future and knows about the treachery, is she not going to want to do something about it? She doesn't want Lachrandir to ever learn about it. And, I don't believe that according to the history, Lachrandir can learn about it. The men's treachery was not known to the elves until their moment in the battle.

Child of the 7th Age · 01-09-2008, 09:22 AM

Folwren,

A valid question that also crossed my mind: how are we going to make this come one with the same ending as Tolkien did? Littlemanpoet definitely needs to weigh in on this.

I suppose there is more than one way to handle this. A few spring to mind. One possibility is that Jord is able to shield all or part of the information from Thorn so that he only suspects what might be going on and must find out more to be able to persuade anyone, which he somehow fails to do. Another possibility is that Thorn tries to warn Lachrandir but, for whatever reason, the Elf turns a deaf ear so that it never goes beyond the two. (Or is this stretching the storyline too far?) There is also the possibility that Thorn does learn exactly what is going on, but somehow does not live long enough to make use of his information.

Perhaps Littlemanpoet has additional ideas, or has already thought this through.

Folwren · 01-09-2008, 09:27 AM

I doubt Lachrandir will turn a deaf ear. He already dislikes the Ulfings.

Quote:

There is also the possibility that Thorn does learn exactly what is going on, but somehow does not live long enough to make use of his information.

I think we could arrange that.

In all seriousness - Elempi, what are your thoughts?

littlemanpoet · 01-09-2008, 10:49 AM

Lachrandir? A good guy? Never thought of him that way myself.....

Here's how I see things possibly unfolding.

Option 1:

Thorn knows a confrontation is about to take place and is waiting for Jord to reveal herself as Morgoth's rather powerful pawn. Therefore he is listening to the Song and through it hears Khandr's final plea, and somehow manages to give him peace though not necessarily hope. Because this happens within the harmonies of the Song, Jord cannot perceive it and doesn't know who Thorn is but that someone has intervened.

Lachrandir doesn't trust the Ulfings, true; Thorn is an Ulfing; why would Lachrandir listen to him any more than the others? So Thorn could attempt to tell him and be rebuffed.

If Thorn maintains his distance from Jord - for now - he can tell Lachrandir and be rebuffed - which he expects anyway and which is why he spoke first to Khandr.

Option 2:

Thorn intervenes between Jord and Khandr, gives Khandr enough knowledge of the Song to give him peace in death, and then is killed by Jord. Plain and simple.

Option 1 seems more interesting to me than Option 2, and Option 1 has the added mystique of Jord not necessarily knowing that Thorn knows; which would make their confrontation later a lot more interesting too.

Does this seem workable?

Gwathagor · 01-09-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Lachrandir doesn't trust the Ulfings, true; Thorn is an Ulfing; why would Lachrandir listen to him any more than the others? So Thorn could attempt to tell him and be rebuffed.

Option 1 seems more interesting to me than Option 2, and Option 1 has the added mystique of Jord not necessarily knowing that Thorn knows; which would make their confrontation later a lot more interesting too.

I like this!

Lalaith · 01-09-2008, 12:39 PM

Ang and I had originally worked out that Embla would take a kind of Cassandra role, that she would try to warn Lachrandir but he would be too haughty to listen to her or understand her properly.

However, it obviously would be stupid/unlikely for both Thorn AND Embla to try to warn the elves and for them to refuse to listen to either of them.

So perhaps Embla should just skulk away somewhere...

Gwathagor · 01-09-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folwren

If Jord finds out about Thorn and knows that he is knows somewhat about the future and knows about the treachery, is she not going to want to do something about it? She doesn't want Lachrandir to ever learn about it. And, I don't believe that according to the history, Lachrandir can learn about it. The men's treachery was not known to the elves until their moment in the battle.

So maybe we just KILL everybody...

01-09-2008, 01:44 AM	#1
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Would this work? As Khandr lies dying, overwhelmed by the grim news that Jord has conveyed to him, he desperately reaches out for another fea to pass on what he has learned. He can do no more than briefly feel a hint of Thorn's mind and then immediately dies. But this would set up the scene for a confrontation of some sort...whatever sort you want....between Thorn and Jord. It might also make sense that, since Thorn already knows that Khandr is in deep trouble, he might actually be making an attempt to "read" the latter from a distance and would therefore respond more readily when the old Borrim diplomat reaches out for help. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-09-2008, 08:41 AM	#2
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	If Jord finds out about Thorn and knows that he is knows somewhat about the future and knows about the treachery, is she not going to want to do something about it? She doesn't want Lachrandir to ever learn about it. And, I don't believe that according to the history, Lachrandir can learn about it. The men's treachery was not known to the elves until their moment in the battle. __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

01-09-2008, 09:22 AM	#3
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Folwren, A valid question that also crossed my mind: how are we going to make this come one with the same ending as Tolkien did? Littlemanpoet definitely needs to weigh in on this. I suppose there is more than one way to handle this. A few spring to mind. One possibility is that Jord is able to shield all or part of the information from Thorn so that he only suspects what might be going on and must find out more to be able to persuade anyone, which he somehow fails to do. Another possibility is that Thorn tries to warn Lachrandir but, for whatever reason, the Elf turns a deaf ear so that it never goes beyond the two. (Or is this stretching the storyline too far?) There is also the possibility that Thorn does learn exactly what is going on, but somehow does not live long enough to make use of his information. Perhaps Littlemanpoet has additional ideas, or has already thought this through. __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-09-2008, 12:39 PM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Ang and I had originally worked out that Embla would take a kind of Cassandra role, that she would try to warn Lachrandir but he would be too haughty to listen to her or understand her properly. However, it obviously would be stupid/unlikely for both Thorn AND Embla to try to warn the elves and for them to refuse to listen to either of them. So perhaps Embla should just skulk away somewhere... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-09-2008, 10:49 AM	#5
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Lachrandir? A good guy? Never thought of him that way myself..... Here's how I see things possibly unfolding. Option 1: Thorn knows a confrontation is about to take place and is waiting for Jord to reveal herself as Morgoth's rather powerful pawn. Therefore he is listening to the Song and through it hears Khandr's final plea, and somehow manages to give him peace though not necessarily hope. Because this happens within the harmonies of the Song, Jord cannot perceive it and doesn't know who Thorn is but that someone has intervened. Lachrandir doesn't trust the Ulfings, true; Thorn is an Ulfing; why would Lachrandir listen to him any more than the others? So Thorn could attempt to tell him and be rebuffed. If Thorn maintains his distance from Jord - for now - he can tell Lachrandir and be rebuffed - which he expects anyway and which is why he spoke first to Khandr. Option 2: Thorn intervenes between Jord and Khandr, gives Khandr enough knowledge of the Song to give him peace in death, and then is killed by Jord. Plain and simple. Option 1 seems more interesting to me than Option 2, and Option 1 has the added mystique of Jord not necessarily knowing that Thorn knows; which would make their confrontation later a lot more interesting too. Does this seem workable?