What was Shelob, and more importantly, what was Ungoliant?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

NO NO NO NO NO NO! Heaven forbid. Allow me to underline the fact that I am NOT, never have been, and never will be a Pantheist. I had in mind more the idea of a sustaining, imaginative, creative will and grace, rather than a "god is in the rocks" concept. I do see how my post could have been construed that way, though. I tread dangerous ground.

My point was that Ungoliant shouldn't be viewed as any kind of opposite to Eru, who is really much too big to be compared to anything.

Interestingly, Melkor is "in the rocks." And presumably so are the others who participated in creation, though none poured more of their vitality into physical things than Melkor.

You're correct about Iluvatar and Ungoliante: Ungoliante is part of creation, necessarily, because of what we know of Iluvatar, and Iluvatar is above and detached from creation. It seems unlikely that Iluvatar would have created his opposite, and it seems impossible that he could have created her with power commensurate with his own.

However, the idea that Ungoliante was a negative byproduct of the positive act of creation is pretty cute, though it would seem to deprive Iluvatar of absolute omnipotence by subjecting him to a law that, in a way, would regulate his creative energy; and, assuming that he did not institute the law, undermines his primacy as well. Also interesting is Lalwende's idea--if I understand her point--that Iluvatar is only omnipotent and eternal relative to his own creation--information which would be promulgated only on a need-to-know basis (and the Eldar do not need to know). He is Almighty in the eyes of the Ainur and all orders below them, even though he may have peers, some of whom (e.g. Ungoliante) might potentially interfere with his universe. Unfortunately, this kind of speculation does not produce much of value and, ultimately, leads only to dead ends.

[Gwathagor]

Not a negative byproduct of a positive creation, but rather a negative byproduct of a warped positive creation. Creation in its original perfection couldn't have produced Ungoliant, but the discord that resulted from Melkor's rebellion could. And don't call it cute.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Not a negative byproduct of a positive creation, but rather a negative byproduct of a warped positive creation. Creation in its original perfection couldn't have produced Ungoliant, but the discord that resulted from Melkor's rebellion could. And don't call it cute.

Hmmm, though wouldn't that mean that Ungoliant was in fact created by Melkor? Who could not create but only corrupt? She is clearly not a part of Melkor in any way, as not only does he make an attempt to enslave/enlist her, but she is able to leave him and instead be 'mistress of her own lusts'. That suggests to me she is at the very least a peer of Melkor as none of the beings he 'creates' (i.e. corrupts from other beings) seem to be able to do much more than lip service towards genuine independence.

Of course creation in its 'original perfection' did produce Melkor. So what does that say about the 'perfection' of creation?

[zxcvbn]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Hmmm, though wouldn't that mean that Ungoliant was in fact created by Melkor? Who could not create but only corrupt? She is clearly not a part of Melkor in any way, as not only does he make an attempt to enslave/enlist her, but she is able to leave him and instead be 'mistress of her own lusts'. That suggests to me she is at the very least a peer of Melkor as none of the beings he 'creates' (i.e. corrupts from other beings) seem to be able to do much more than lip service towards genuine independence.

Of course creation in its 'original perfection' did produce Melkor. So what does that say about the 'perfection' of creation?

It shows that even the Creator ain't perfect. Or maybe that evil is meant to be a part of creation since the struggle between good and evil enhances its beauty.

As for Melkor not being able to create, I believe it says that he only lost that power sometime AFTER entering Arda, when his mindset had turned from simply misguided(trying to find the Flame Imperishable, so that he could equal Eru) to evil(wanting to be the supreme ruler and to enslave everything else). His malice had grown, so that he could only create 'in mockery of others'.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by zxcvbn

It shows that even the Creator ain't perfect. Or maybe that evil is meant to be a part of creation since the struggle between good and evil enhances its beauty.
.

It depends on what you call 'perfect' and if that is a human concept. To explain that better, hopefully, Eru is beyond all that kind of thing, Eru simply 'is'. So Eru is light and darkness and he was capable of producing beings as different as Varda and Melkor, but good/evil do not come into it.

In many ways that would tie in very well indeed with Tolkien's own struggles to reconcile his own God who could on the one hand create everything but on the other could also set the boundary of Death. The latter sounds like a very bad thing but it is 'all part of God's plan' and all that. Just as Melkor and the possibility that Melkor might introduce discordancy by being given free will was all part of what Eru made.

[mhagain]

Oh, Ungoliant's easy. Let's look at the evidence. Exhibit A, m'lud:

in ages long before she had descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the light in the kingdom of Manwe

So we need to find the time "when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the light"; let's read the Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days. Exhibit B, m'lud:

...far off in the darkness he was filled with hatred, being jealous of the work of his peers, whom he desired to make subject to himself. Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service, and he deemed himself strong. And seeing now his time he drew near again to Arda, and looked down upon it, and the beauty of the Earth in its Spring filled him the more with hate.

Note the wording. "Jealous" - "envy". "Looked down". That can't be an accident. And this was just at the time before Melkor assailed and destroyed the Lamps, so yes, he was looking down on the light too.

So that's when Ungoliant came into the world.

Now let's read Of the Darkening of Valinor:

But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust

So Ungoliant originally had a Master, but who was he? Let's read the same chapter in Morgoth's Ring, where there's a bit more dialog that CT diidn't use in the published Silmarillion:

Thrice fool: to leave me first...

OK, so her Master was Melkor, she came into the world when Melkor overthrew the Lamps, and that was the time when Melkor "gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service".

So that's what Ungoliant is: one of those spirits.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by mhagain

OK, so her Master was Melkor, she came into the world when Melkor overthrew the Lamps, and that was the time when Melkor "gathered to himself spirits out of the halls of Eä that he had perverted to his service".

So that's what Ungoliant is: one of those spirits.

I agree on Ungoliant's origin. I think she was one of the Ainu who entered separately from the Valar. That independence carried over though and I wouldn't put her in the same class as the Balrogs and Sauron, "perverted" into becoming his servants. Ungoliant was more of a co-conspirator: acting in concert with Melkor temporarily, for her own gain. Serving him was not her intention.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She is clearly not a part of Melkor in any way, as not only does he make an attempt to enslave/enlist her, but she is able to leave him and instead be 'mistress of her own lusts'. That suggests to me she is at the very least a peer of Melkor as none of the beings he 'creates' (i.e. corrupts from other beings) seem to be able to do much more than lip service towards genuine independence.

Can I pop in and say that it would make very good sense on this matter if she were an Ainu? Like the Balrogs, who were originally flame spirits similar to Arien, but were persuaded by Morgoth to join him...

Just dropping a few thoughts as a refrain

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Can I pop in and say that it would make very good sense on this matter if she were an Ainu? Like the Balrogs, who were originally flame spirits similar to Arien, but were persuaded by Morgoth to join him...

This is a good parallel for another reason. Earlier, Balrogs were meant to be creations of Morgoth; Tolkien changed their origin to fit in with his later ideas. Same with Ungoliant.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Hmmm, though wouldn't that mean that Ungoliant was in fact created by Melkor?

No, because Morgoth did not create the darkness. He only participated in the struggle that helped mess it up. So, Morgoth though would have been partially responsible for the existence of Ungoliant, she still wasn't his creature. Thus, he could not completely master her.