Hurin and despair - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 05-19-2003, 03:21 AM

The issue of free will is central - Flieger makes a big issue of the fact that men are stated by Tolkien not to have been bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (including Elves, which means, according to her, that Elves have no freedom of choice, which I find difficult to believe, but Tolkien stated it clearly).

Just to go back to Hurin's defiance of Morgoth. Are we really saying that Morgoth, with techniques of torture & brain washing, & Magic REALLY couldn't have gotten any information out of Hurin he wanted? That would make him far weaker & more stupid than I always imagined. Yes, Morgoth wanted to find & destroy Gondolin, but he was in no desperate hurry. He was convinced of his ultimate victory, convinced the Valar would never intervene. His pride would never allow him to contemplate defeat by the Elves. All the time his forces were growing. He wasn't desperate to win, as far as he was concerned, victory was a foregone conclusion.

Of course he was wrong about all that, but I really can't believe he would take all that time over Hurin, if he felt he was up against time. Its the very callous & dismissive way he treats Hurin that convinces me he was 'playing with him, like cats with poor mouses' to pararphrase. I think Hurin is maybe less important to Morgoth than Hurin would like to believe. He plays with him, destroys his family before his eyes, & then throws him out to wander, hoping he'll do some damage.

The real horror of the story for me, is that Morgoth inflicts such cruelty, for fun. Morgoth isn't desperately trying to get information out of Hurin. He's biding his time, building his forces for an inevitable (as he thinks) victory, & Hurin is just entertainment.

Hurin is a man. He couldn't defy a Valar. Morgoth might have been weakened, less than he had been, but don't forget what he HAD been. He would have had to fall a long way for a man to be able to defy him. Come on, Finrod couldn't hold out against Sauron. Are we saying Hurin could defy Morgoth successfully?

05-19-2003, 03:21 AM	#11
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	The issue of free will is central - Flieger makes a big issue of the fact that men are stated by Tolkien not to have been bound by the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else (including Elves, which means, according to her, that Elves have no freedom of choice, which I find difficult to believe, but Tolkien stated it clearly). Just to go back to Hurin's defiance of Morgoth. Are we really saying that Morgoth, with techniques of torture & brain washing, & Magic REALLY couldn't have gotten any information out of Hurin he wanted? That would make him far weaker & more stupid than I always imagined. Yes, Morgoth wanted to find & destroy Gondolin, but he was in no desperate hurry. He was convinced of his ultimate victory, convinced the Valar would never intervene. His pride would never allow him to contemplate defeat by the Elves. All the time his forces were growing. He wasn't desperate to win, as far as he was concerned, victory was a foregone conclusion. Of course he was wrong about all that, but I really can't believe he would take all that time over Hurin, if he felt he was up against time. Its the very callous & dismissive way he treats Hurin that convinces me he was 'playing with him, like cats with poor mouses' to pararphrase. I think Hurin is maybe less important to Morgoth than Hurin would like to believe. He plays with him, destroys his family before his eyes, & then throws him out to wander, hoping he'll do some damage. The real horror of the story for me, is that Morgoth inflicts such cruelty, for fun. Morgoth isn't desperately trying to get information out of Hurin. He's biding his time, building his forces for an inevitable (as he thinks) victory, & Hurin is just entertainment. Hurin is a man. He couldn't defy a Valar. Morgoth might have been weakened, less than he had been, but don't forget what he HAD been. He would have had to fall a long way for a man to be able to defy him. Come on, Finrod couldn't hold out against Sauron. Are we saying Hurin could defy Morgoth successfully? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."