LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 02 - The Shadow of the Past

[Estelyn Telcontar]

"The Shadow of the Past" gives the story depth after the light-hearted beginning, and the sinister foreshadowings become known facts. I'm amused by "Mad Baggins", reminding us how legends grow, starting with some truth and distorting it over time. There's also an echo of the first chapter's account of the death of Frodo's parents in the opinion that Bilbo must have drowned as well.

There are many memorable lines in this chapter - the Ring poem, of course, and Gandalf's wise words on deciding what to do with the time given us, and on deserving death, and on being chosen for a task. Those phrases are of enduring worth and an important part of what makes the book such worthwhile reading - and rereading.

We also get a foreshadowing of Frodo's later inability to throw the Ring into Mt. Doom - he can't even throw it into his fireplace in the comparative security of his home!

I like Sam's "eavesdropping" pun - do you think it was on purpose or accidental?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, the Shadow of the Past is at first touching the dark things as themselves, though very carefully at the beginning, with good resonances of the Hobbit: Sauron is mentioned as "the Dark Power that was driven from Mirkwood", and Saruman the White is mentioned in connection with the White Council (yay! I remember when I read this for the first time, I thought something like "what silly Saruman? And White? That's going to be some boring all-good leader in the background" - something like the way many people see Manwë or so, you know: the one who sits in the back and does nothing, though he is the goodest of all good. Oh, how mistaken I was! And I'm happy for that ).

I never noticed how fast Gandalf jumps to the topic concerning the Ring. The flow of the story is slow, gentle all the time: this happens, that happens, yada yada, Sam talks with Ted Sandyman, Gandalf arrives as usual, the and Frodo greet each other, and suddenly boom, "Your Ring is dangerous, there were many rings like that in Eregion." Who? What? Why? Total shock. No one knows what Eregion is, no one knows that there were more Rings like that, Gandalf suddenly overflows us with information. The name "Sauron" is mentioned without warning. On some two pages, we learn about Sauron, Mordor, the Three/Seven/Nine, we learn about the Ringwraith - I would call the two pages that follow after the Ring-verses "intensive course of M-E arcana". Yet I never had the feeling of confusion when reading this, unlike for example the story about Fëanor and Fi(-nwë, -narfin, -ngolfin, -nrod etc.).

As to Sam's eavesdropping, I always thought it was intentional "playing dumb" (as Gandalf tells him). Anyway, Sam is just wonderful and his words at the end of the chapter always make me laugh.

Also one thing I did not consciously realise until now: I always had the feeling that the Ring-script is supposed to be read from right to left. Does anyone of you have the same feeling when you look at it?

[Rumil]

Hi all,

another well-discussed chapter, and the crucial one for the plot after all.

Typically I'll try and pick up a few minor points.

But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled and spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor

I think this shows dwarves of the Eastern houses, for surely those of Erebor or the Iron Hills would not be considered 'strange' by Frodo? Therefore they must have had quite a journey from the mountains of the East (Yellow Mountains?) perhaps disturbed by Sauron's increasing domination of the East.

Another thing is that 'queer folk' were crossing the Shire and more being turned back by the Bounders. If these were refugees, then where were they coming from? Perhaps they were the first scouting parties of Saruman's spies?

[davem]

Sam fell on his knees, trembling. 'Get up, Sam!' said Gandalf. 'I have thought of something better than that. Something to shut your mouth, and punish you properly for listening. You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!'
'Me, sir!' cried Sam, springing up like a dog invited for a walk. 'Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!' he shouted, and then burst into tears.

From Njal's Saga:

Then Gunnar rode from the Thing west to the Dales, till he came to Hjardarholt, and Olaf the Peacock gave him a hearty welcome. There he sat half a month, and rode far and wide about the Dales, and all welcomed him with joyful hands. But at their parting Olaf said, "I will give thee three things of price, a gold ring, and a cloak which Moorkjartan the Erse king owned, and a hound that was given me in Ireland; he is big, and no worse follower than a sturdy man. Besides, it is part of his nature that he has man's wit, and he will bay at every man whom he knows is thy foe, but never at thy friends; he can see, too, in any man's face, whether he means thee well or ill, and he will lay down his life to be true to thee. This hound's name is Sam."

After that he spoke to the hound, "Now shalt thou follow Gunnar, and do him all the service thou canst."

The hound went at once to Gunnar and laid himself down at his feet.

Well, it made me think.....

[Pervinca Took]

Samr of Brennu-Njal's Saga makes me think of Sam of LOTR too. Although I suppose Sam doesn't immediately see that Strider is not an enemy and means them harm, not good, and he can have a bit of a blind-spot when it comes to Gollum, too. It's partly the jealous/possessive side of Sam's love, the pride and possessiveness which Tolkien saw as inevitable in someone who provided such service as Sam did. But it's also Sam's long habit of caution and innate common-sense, of course.

[Thinlómien]

So, Legate and I are sitting on our sofa, reading this chapter and discussing Gandalf. He's a major presence in this chapter - probably half of the narration is actually his monologue. I love his voice and he's a great character but never tell me Gandalf is a boring goody two shoes mentor character. He's a horrible besserwisser, very arrogant (despite being humbler than say Saruman) and quite ruthless.

Every time I read this chapter I find his treatment of Gollum a little more off-putting, basically everything from the torture to the loathing way he talks about him. He implies Gollum deserves Frodo's pity, yet he has very little pity for Gollum himself. Also, Gandalf isn't exactly known for "the end justifies the means" attitude - that's more Saruman's cup of tea - but when I think of him and Gollum, I think maybe he should be.

Another thing I was paying attention to - okay this will probably take us a bit off topic and would probably merit a thread of its own - was the difference between Bilbo and Frodo as Ringbearers, and how important it is that Bilbo gave the Ring away freely - even Frodo, the steadfast pacifist martyr could not do it. (Well, he went through a lot worse things than Bilbo ever did and was under an entirely different strain, but this is still thematically and symbolically important.) Gandalf also stresses that the Ring had so little power over Bilbo because his first deed as a Ringbearer stemmed of pity.

Now this made me think, what was Frodo's first significant deed wearing the Ring? I think of Weathertop and stabbing the Witch-King. Is that why Frodo had such a difficult relationship with the Ring? But Frodo act courageously and in self-defense, in Elbereth's name and against the Dark Powers. It's hard to think of that as a bad thing.

Lastly, a small thing. Did Gollum really eat human babies?!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Every time I read this chapter I find his treatment of Gollum a little more off-putting, basically everything from the torture to the loathing way he talks about him. He implies Gollum deserves Frodo's pity, yet he has very little pity for Gollum himself. Also, Gandalf isn't exactly known for "the end justifies the means" attitude - that's more Saruman's cup of tea - but when I think of him and Gollum, I think maybe he should be.

It certainly sounds quite scary there, what he does to Gollum. What does "I put the fear of fire on him" mean, anyway? Gandalf is being awfully vague, that is most certainly not a normal expression and I would like to know what he means there. Somehow I don't think it just means picking up a torch and waving it menacingly. It feels like something... deeper.

When I read this now, I have been also thinking that the expression reminds me of something else, something creepy someone else does, maybe some Ringwraith later on. Then I realised: it reminded me of what happens to the squint-eyed Southerner in one of the versions of the Hunt for the Ring in the Unfinished Tales. When running an errand for Saruman, he stumbles upon the Nazgul who are riding North, and they question him, learn where the Shire is, learn that Saruman is a double-crosser and afterwards, they "reprogram" this Saruman's agent and send him to Bree where he teams up with Bill Ferny. The phrase I am interested in, however, is:

Originally Posted by The Unfinished Tales

[The Witch-King] put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent him on to Bree as an agent.

Super-creepy, right after some awful mind-torture, and just the fact that I am even able to connect this with what Gandalf did to Gollum does not shed very good light on Mr. Scary Wizard. Huh. *shudders*

Originally Posted by Lommy

Gandalf also stresses that the Ring had so little power over Bilbo because his first deed as a Ringbearer stemmed of pity.

Now this made me think, what was Frodo's first significant deed wearing the Ring? I think of Weathertop and stabbing the Witch-King. Is that why Frodo had such a difficult relationship with the Ring? But Frodo act courageously and in self-defense, in Elbereth's name and against the Dark Powers. It's hard to think of that as a bad thing.

Tsk-tsk. I can think of at least one earlier one: in the Barrow. His friends are lying there, seemingly dead, he wakes up, and he thinks that he could run away, imagines himself being free and grieving for them, but being alive. Then he decides not to. Actually, now that I said it, it feels much more so like a parallel to Bilbo's "first deed", isn't it? There is a similar moral dilemma present, similar feel. I don't know if that was intentional parallel - it is still quite a well-hidden episode, as we can see for example just from the fact that you forgot about it, and I think you wouldn't be alone (even though PJ and company are surely partly responsible for this)... but in any case, a parallel it is.

And, of course, it points towards Frodo's future choices, and indeed, his whole journey: it is about self-sacrifice, about sticking with his friends (or not - it is also a reversal of his future choice at Amon Hen where he does choose to abandon his friends - in order to protect them. Again).

Originally Posted by Lommy

Lastly, a small thing. Did Gollum really eat human babies?!

And animal babies. But yes, Frodo's disgust with Gollum after hearing the story is perfectly understandable then - and he voices the disgust repeatedly, I have noticed this time, almost a bit too many times one might think, but under these circumstances, quite appropriately.