Think about it. Please.

[Sauron the White]

alatar - thanks for responding.... I did go to the link and found that you said this in response to another question from me months ago

A certain set of all the posting members here do not like the Jackson films. So? A set of the same do not like going to the cinema, would rather be along with a book than at a pub, and can type much faster in a nonnative language than I can in my own. Is that not their right to be thus?

That I get. Clearly. But what mystifies me is why would someone who does not like movies, prefers books, etc. even come to the Movies section here and bother posting? With you its killing hours off work. At least thats what you humorously claim. And I am all in favor of putting it to the boss. Is that what is happening here? Lot of people getting paid to one job but goofing off having a fun time of it? Its got to be more than that. I hope. Or maybe western civilization is indeed a lot worse off than we thought.

Using myself as an example. I am not a video gamer. Have never played any of them and have zero interest in ever doing so. Thats probably because I am old and they did not have them when we were being chased by the neighborhood dinosaurs. But I do not go to game sections of boards and pick fights with people and rant and rave about how empty or meaningless their lives are or criticize their entertainment of choice. That would make no sense to me to do that.

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

That I get. Clearly. But what mystifies me is why would someone who does not like movies, prefers books, etc. even come to the Movies section here and bother posting?

That does sound insane. Don't know if these people truly 'hate' the movies. Maybe they do and feel it their duty to let the world know. As below, when you mention game sites, I've read a few posts on said forums (to help my son) and it seems there much time is wasted telling people how wonderfully tough one is. Surely if someone studied this, they'd find that some need is being met (obviously).

With you its killing hours off work. At least thats what you humorously claim. And I am all in favor of putting it to the boss. Is that what is happening here? Lot of people getting paid to one job but goofing off having a fun time of it? Its got to be more than that. I hope. Or maybe western civilization is indeed a lot worse off than we thought.

Okay, so I may be fibbing regarding that reason. Could it be that my posts in the Books section go unanswered? Do others observe the same, and so, knowing that the movies, being a different and visual medium, produce a more visceral experience, and so attract more rabid posters like myself, which then at least gets some response? If a post falls in the woods...

I'd also consider ease of access. Some may be put off by the Books, but everyone has watched movies, and so may feel more comfortable posting here, especially if you can find something that at least a few others find contentious. Could it be age related? As more and more of the world is video (i.e. YouTube), do our younger members find more interest in the movies, as that's what they live with 24/7?

I'd hate to blow my cover, but I spend more time reading the books than critiquing the movies.

Using myself as an example. I am not a video gamer. Have never played any of them and have zero interest in ever doing so. Thats probably because I am old and they did not have them when we were being chased by the neighborhood dinosaurs. But I do not go to game sections of boards and pick fights with people and rant and rave about how empty or meaningless their lives are or criticize their entertainment of choice. That would make no sense to me to do that.

Sense? What sense does anything make?

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

Must be the medium. Hmmm...

[Lalwendë]

I'm not sure the video game analogy works because while you might never play video games, everyone watches films.

But that kind of illustrates the point following on now...

Tolkien fans, myself included, are Nerds (or Geeks or whatever is correct these days). And nerds are probably the biggest pedants you are ever likely to meet. Nothing is quite so enjoyable as proving your mastery of utterly trivial facts or winning an inconsequential argument about Balrog wings. It's also very important to make sure all the other fans know just how cool you are by making a big noise about dissing all the right things to diss and having all the right editions and not opening the packaging and so on and so forth. Rather like Comic Book Guy off The Simpsons.

It's something shared not just by Tolkien fans but also by fans of a hundred and one other things e.g. Star Wars, Star Trek, and so on...

And I say that with complete honesty, thinking about the hours I've wasted on Facebook doing the Lord of the Rings trivia challenge, the vast amounts of cash I've splurged on Tolkien stuff and the way I secretly hope someone will see my Tolkien Society badge when I'm haunting the sci-fi section in Waterstones...



We do it because it's fun and it's just part of the territory of being a nerdy fan. I do it even though I enjoyed the films so much I bought around 100 of the action figures.

"Worst episode ever..."

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

Perhaps we, both book and movie fans, are desperately hopeful of finding the entwives and believe they can be found if we could only tease out the right leaf or blossom, never while really thinking that they can be found?

[Sauron the White]

A heartfelt thank you to all here who posted their thoughts and feelings. It does help me understand.

What about the idea that I put forth that no film or series of films could stand the continual and longterm scrutiny that is given by the Tolkien community to the LOTR films? Is that valid? Is there truth to it?

Here is how I put it in my opening post:

I wonder... if you took any film(s) which is/are based on a well known and well loved book such as LOTR... and that book had a significant following of intelligent people such as the folks here with LOTR ... and they could have years to watch and rewatch the film(s) over and over and over again .... and if they could read the thoughts, writings, articles, journal entries, musings and books of others on the subject of adapting the books into film(s) .... and many of those same people had some sort of axe to grind, some sort of personal antagonism towards the film(s) ....... and many of those same people are considered experts in that field and have spent decades honing their knowledge and espertise...

I wonder if any film or set of films could stand up to that sort of examination for that length of time in that sort of detail under those conditions?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Well, those who have looked into other forums - Harry Potter, for example - will notice the fanatic attention given to details there. And of course there is discussion of various film versions of Jane Austen's novels, to mention other literary adaptions of well-loved books. I have participated in discussions of the latter, and they go into character changes for better or for worse - though they tend to be rather more civilized than the discussions I've looked into briefly on Potter forums. Then, that could be simply a matter of age and maturity...

Perhaps some of you who know Potter forums can share your experiences there?

[Sauron the White]

Estelyn... I am not a Potter fan but is not a huge difference the fact that the movies were made with the support and input of the author J. K. Rowling? And would not her participation in the movies somewhat mitigate the level of criticism directed at the movies?

I wonder about other beloved books that were made like LOTR - without the input of the author.

Are there OZ people who are huge fans of the books but who are somewhere still complaining about how Judy Garland was just too old for Dorothy..... the addition of those songs which were not in the book ..... the change of color from silver to red for the all important slippers ..... or how they changed the essential character of one character or another .... and lets not forget about all the stuff they left out like the Winkies ... or even worse added that was not in the book.

I wonder if when the OZ people talk with each other or get together do they still complain about those things?

I wonder if there are Margaret Mitchell fans who love the book but find fault with the film GONE WITH THE WIND? I don't think she wrote the screenplay.

[Kath]

What is so unique about the books/movies crowd here that the dynamic is so totally different? People seem to enjoy rattling the others trees to see what shakes out.

Well otherwise you'd have some very boring discussions. If everyone agreed with each other you'd have a thread that went like this:

"Don't you think the way PJ altered Gimli's character was brilliant?"
"Yeah."
"Oh absolutely."
"For sure!"

And yes of course that's an exaggeration but still, it would be far less interesting than when you get people with completely opposing points of view trying to get their opinions across. Sometimes that can get a little rowdy as we have seen before. Sometimes because it is admittedly fun to throw out a comment you know will make someone else explode, but mostly just because people are so impassioned about a particular point.

You compare the situation to that of getting involved in video game discussions when you have no interest in video games, but that's not an accurate analogy. Fans of the books have a vested interest in the films because if they were good there would be another medium the story was presented in for them to enjoy. They are interested to see how the story has been translated across media and then they are interested in they whys and hows of why that translation did or did not work.

[Meriadoc1961]

Sauron,

I have said this before, and I will say it again, I am a fan of the movies. I own all three of them, and I look forward to seeing The Hobbit once it gets released. But I was a fan of Tolkien and the books long before the movies were made. My gripe has always been and always will be with the tampering of the characters that were created by Tolkien that was committed by Jackson and crew. None of it was necessary. I have no doubt in my mind that had they remained true to the characters that they would not have lost one single audience member or award. In fact, I know of some book fans that did NOT go and see the second and third movies BECAUSE of the change in character they saw in the first installment, so there is at least anecdotal evidence that they actually lost some viewers by not sticking to the characters as envisioned by Tolkien. And lest we forget, it was BECAUSE of the tremendous support of the fans of the books that got the rest of the world so excited and willing to part with their money and time to see the movies in the first place.

Merry

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In my opinion, the biggest factor is that almost everyone who posts here has both read the books and seen the movies. If one had done only the one or the other, it would be boring to post about it, as there would be no comparison.

The other reason is psychological - the level of satisfaction or disappointment with any given event is directly connected to the level of expectation. You see, for the many of us who read the books long before the movies came out, the hype was extremely great - jacked up by the media and those interested in getting us all into the theaters. So expectations ran very high.

If the movies had been only poor, there would have been little to discuss. (After all, you don't see many people posting about the rather subpar animated movies - they are mentioned only very occasionally here.) But there was much that was wonderful about PJ's products, especially visually and as concerns the music. The dichotomy between wonderful aspects and inappropriate changes often shows up with repeated watching for some people; others are disappointed with the changes at first, then get used to some.

At any rate, anyone here at the Downs is welcome to discuss both movies and books positively or negatively - or both all mixed up. If we all had the same opinion, it would be boring! Two things are important in our discussions - give good reasons for your opinion, then you may encourage those who think differently to think more deeply. But if they stick to their own opinion, let it go. We are all here for fun - don't take yourself too seriously.

After all, we are not in an army - all of you Johnnies and Janes can march any way you want to! Just don't try to trip the others...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

(After all, you don't see many people posting about the rather subpar animated movies - they are mentioned only very occasionally here.)

Don't get me started...

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Well...I'd say that Johnny's mother was quite wrong. If she really loved her Johnny, she'd be willing to see his faults and exhort him to do better next time. She'd criticize him, not out of spite or venom, but out of her love for him, and her steadfast belief in his true potential.

Not sure that I agree. My kids eventually will conform to the world; one day, the clothes that they wear to school will become super-important, and Dad will be embarrassing them when he steps out to get the paper in shorts and long black socks.

Conformity. Sure, when you're in the band, your job is to march to the beat. But when you're not 'on the job,' hopefully you feel free enough choose your own steps. "Me too," is boring.

Another point: My feelings regarding the movies haven't changed since I've watched the EE DVDs the second time. With all of my quibbling and nitpicking, I like them no more or less, regardless of the number of faults that I find with PJ's works.

[Gwathagor]

Whoa...I'm not preaching slavish conformity to the world. Not by a long shot. No sir.

[alatar]

It's hard to believe, but there are other books made into movies out there. Yes, I too was shocked when I learned this, and have started to consider that there just might be a world outside Tolkien...maybe one day I even go there.

This article bears somewhat on our books versus movies discussion. There's more here as well.

Originally Posted by A somewhat relevant quote

Why do people melt down when their favorite book becomes a movie? David Shumway, the director of the Humanities Center at Carnegie Mellon University, has a theory.

"People freak out because they become emotionally invested in the experience of reading the book," he says. "At best, people deeply attached to a book are likely to feel good about the film if it helps them to relive their reading experience.... At worst, the movie will feel like a travesty of the book because its interpretation is different or because it leaves out (and all movies of books have to leave much out) what the reader likes best about the book."

Maybe it's not just us Downers?

[Sauron the White]

alatar - I am sure you and the article you cited is correct. Which is why I asked yesterday about the OZ people. Do you think they still are complaining about that 1939 film which aged Dorothy by at least six years, changed the color of the slippers from silver to red, left out the Winkies, and added all the songs and other stuff which was not in the book?

We know that five years is not enough time to let the water pass under the bridge but is seventy years long enough?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

alatar - I am sure you and the article you cited is correct. Which is why I asked yesterday about the OZ people. Do you think they still are complaining about that 1939 film which aged Dorothy by at least six years, changed the color of the slippers from silver to red, left out the Winkies, and added all the songs and other stuff which was not in the book?

Different times. Today any knight, knave or fool (like me) with a keyboard and internet access can expound ad infinitum about topics both great and small. Guessing if 'Oz' were released today, you'd get similar (maybe not the same) carping. Books, like their readers, are individuals, and so may garner individual responses when made into movies.

We know that five years is not enough time to let the water pass under the bridge but is seventy years long enough?

Not for me, not until seven times seventy...

Aren't people still criticizing ancient religious texts? People still believe in astrology, even though the inverse-square law of gravitation has been around for 300+ years.

Guess some things just take time to get out of our systems. Maybe in a decade or two when the new movies are made, I'll give up my complaints and move on to fresh meat.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

Maybe it's not just us Downers?

Noes! You means we Downers isn't as unique and witty and clevers as we thinks we is?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

alatar, thank you for those interesting links! I read the articles with great enjoyment, especially the comments on the Pride and Prejudice movie, as I'm one of the enthusiastic readers who watches the film versions very closely. (They mentioned only the Hollywood movie, not the one and only visual interpretation - the BBC series.) And of course the book is better!! After all, the readers' taste in men is different - I can imagine Mr. Darcy to look exactly as I want him to!

Oh, and any article that manages to use "persnickety" - one of my favorite words! - has my full approval.

I do not agree with the author of the second linked article on the subject of the LotR movie being better than the book, but there's no accounting for tastes, as my old Gaffer would say...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Noes! You means we Downers isn't as unique and witty and clevers as we thinks we is?

Bb behave.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I do not agree with the author of the second linked article on the subject of the LotR movie being better than the book, but there's no accounting for tastes, as my old Gaffer would say...

Agreed. Like stated, watch LotR with the sound off. You tend not to get as choked up. Can you read LotR (or any book) with the 'sound off?' Is this the difference?