Lazy Nazgul

[Groin Redbeard]

Hmm... here is a thread worthy of reviving. I don't know how to explain why the Nazgul didn't sense the presence of the ring. I was hoping that a more notable and more knowledgeable Downer could answer that question.

Legate where are you!?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh my, I'm flattered

Anyway, my personal belief is that the Nazgul felt the Ring only very vaguely, more if it was on someone's hand currently. The Nazgul did not feel the Ring almost ever during the hobbits' journey through the wilderness. I have the feeling I was responding to similar question recently on another thread - remember the scene in Imlad Morgul when the Witch-King passes the bridge of Morgulduin and suddenly feels Frodo's presence. Khamul, of course (unlike WK), knew that the Ring was supposed to be around, and also was, as it was mentioned in the first post, more sensitive to its presence. Nevertheless, when Frodo was near (overhearing the conversation), Khamul concentrated on other things (the interrogation of Gaffer) and later, Frodo was further from him and also, there were more hobbits around, which confused the Nazgul: to what was said in the first post, I might add that not only in dark, but also in loneliness they were strongest. I think the presence of many people could have disturbed their feelings.

[Gordis]

Hello, I have just registered, though I have been reading threads on this forum occasionally. The present subject seems very interesting to me. I have been recently discussing it on another forum, so I have decided to post my 2 cents here as well.

To begin with: how do the nazgul sense the Ring? It seems reasonable to suppose that the ring emits some signal (an Osanwe-kenta signal, most likely) that the nazgul are able to detect. The nazgul have to "tune" to the Ring's signal to find it.

The question is whether the Ring emits its signal all the time, or only when it "knows" that the target (a nazgul) is nearby? And if the latter is true, then how can the Ring "know" it?

I don't think the Ring had any usual senses: sight, hearing, smell etc. More likely, it could only process the feelings of its current holder - Frodo. So when Frodo saw the nazgul or knew the nazgul are (or might be) nearby, he became frightened and the Ring sensed his thoughts and feelings and started to emit its signal.

When Frodo was completely unaware of the danger, even when a nazgul was really quite near, then the Ring couldn't sense the nazgul either and didn't emit its signal.

That might explain the incidents with the Gaffer (Frodo was not yet frightened at all, he even considered revealing himself to the stranger) and on the road in the Shire (there Frodo was only slightly frightened and not yet quite sure of what, and the nazgul stopped, also feeling something - but not yet sure what exactly, maybe he only smelled some hobbit flesh nearby).

The following night, Frodo was already quite frightened when he saw the nazgul, so the Ring's signal was stronger and the nazgul was much more "tuned" to the signal - he dismounted and went in the right direction. Also it has happened at night, when nazgul were more powerful. But for the Elves, Khamul would have found the Ring.

Frodo was aware of the pursuit and quite frightened all the way to the Ferry - and Khamul sensed the Ring all the time, and missed the hobbit by mere minutes:
" As soon as the Elves depart [Khamul] renews his hunt, and reaching the ridge above Woodhall is aware that the Ring has been there. Failing to find the Bearer and feeling that he is drawing away, he summons [his companion] by cries. [He] is aware of the general direction that the Ring has taken, but not knowing of Frodo's rest in the wood, and believing him to have made straight eastwards, he and [his companion] ride over the fields. They visit Maggot while Frodo is still under the trees. [Khamul] then makes a mistake (probably because he imagines the Ringbearer as some mighty man, strong and swift): he does not look near the farm, but sends [his companion] down Causeway towards Overbourn, while he goes north along it towards the Bridge. They tryst to return and meet one another at night; but do so just too late. Frodo crosses by ferry just before [Khamul] arrives. [His companion] joins him soon after. [Khamul] is now well aware that the Ring has crossed the river; but the river is a barrier to his sense of its movement." - Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) published in Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion p.116.

In the Prancing Pony Frodo was peacefully sleeping through most of the attack, I believe, waking only at the end of it - so the Ring should have been "silent". Thus the two nazgul who directed (or perpetrated) the sack of the hobbit-sized room in the Prancing Pony couldn't even tell that the Ring was in the same building, but upstairs.

The problem of the nazgul was that only the Witch-King and Khamul could sense the Ring really well. And neither of them was in Bree while the hobbits were there. The WK was still at Andrath and Khamul was at Crickhollow. The rest of the nazgul were just... well...not too good to put it mildly.
The two in Bree were especially bad: they had almost captured Merry, but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed. Also, finding nothing at the Pony, the two nazgul got upset and went south to Andrath to report to the WK - leaving Bree and the East Road unguarded. That's how they lost the trail of the hobbits between Bree and Weathertop.

After that, the Ring, feeling Frodo's fear, must have been emitting its signal almost constantly, and indeed as we can see in the "Hunt for the Ring", published in the Reader's Companion: "But [the Witch-king and Khamûl] remain watching Weathertop. Thus they become aware of the approach of Frodo on Oct. 5." And that is one day before Frodo actually reached Weathertop! Not bad...

Unfortunately, the incidents that happened later (Emyn Muil, Dead Marches), are more difficult to explain. Well, perhaps there were lesser nazgul involved, whose ability to sense the Ring was no match for the WK's and Khamul's. Also, they were not expecting to sense the Ring at all, were not "listening" to its signal.

As for the incident in the Morgul Vale, I think it proves my theory.
First Frodo sees the WK, recognizes him and gets frightened. (Here the Ring likely "goes off like a fire alarm". Then and only then the WK senses the signal and stops. (Note that the WK had time to ride from the Gates of Minas Morgul all the way down to the Bridge before he felt anything - because Frodo was unaware of him and the Ring was not emitting).
'Even as these thoughts pierced [Frodo] with dread and held him bound as with a spell, the Rider halted suddenly, right before the entrance of the bridge, and behind him all the host stood still"

The Wk stops and tries to locate the source of the signal. Then the Ring "asks" to be put on. Frodo almost complies. But then Frodo finds Galadriel's Phial and gets shielded: "As he touched it, for a while all thought of the Ring was banished from his mind. He sighed and bent his head."
Likely, as Frodo's mind becomes blank, the Ring's signal stops and the WK looses it. The Morgul Lord is in a hurry and has no time to investigate the matter - but for the war, the WK wouldn't have been deterred so easily. He has sensed the Ring all right.

Does it fit?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's really an interesting theory, and a good one also. Nothing in the books, as far as I am aware, says that the Ring really worked this way, but nothing also says that it didn't and the theory is believable at least.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The problem of the nazgul was that only the Witch-King and Khamul could sense the Ring really well. And neither of them was in Bree while the hobbits were there. The WK was still at Andrath and Khamul was at Crickhollow. The rest of the nazgul were just... well...not too good to put it mildly.
The two in Bree were especially bad: they had almost captured Merry, but panicked when Nob came shouting with a lantern... Pitiful indeed. Also, finding nothing at the Pony, the two nazgul got upset and went south to Andrath to report to the WK - leaving Bree and the East Road unguarded. That's how they lost the trail of the hobbits between Bree and Weathertop.

I like the analysis of the two Nazgul - it's interesting how this brings some information about the individual Nazgul. In fact, it will make an interesting thread to try to find what we can collect about every individual Ringwraith, to give them some - though only very little - personality. Hmm...

Originally Posted by Gordis

Unfortunately, the incidents that happened later (Emyn Muil, Dead Marches), are more difficult to explain. Well, perhaps there were lesser nazgul involved, whose ability to sense the Ring was no match for the WK's and Khamul's. Also, they were not expecting to sense the Ring at all, were not "listening" to its signal.

I think there is no problem with this theory. Indeed, the Nazgul are not "listening", probably they are other Nazgul than Khamul or WK (maybe even these "losers" from Bree? ), and they are flying, which is, I can't actually explain why, but I think different than if they were riding on the ground. They probably cannot concentrate much when flying anyway - less than on a horse, probably.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's really an interesting theory, and a good one also. Nothing in the books, as far as I am aware, says that the Ring really worked this way, but nothing also says that it didn't and the theory is believable at least.

Thank you, Legate.
I think it stands to reason that the Ring was operating and operated by Osanwe. It had no buttons on it, after all - if one wished to give it a command, it was an act of mind and will. And the Ring did affect the mind of the user (or bearer) and it enabled a competent user to read minds of other ring-wielders.
The idea that the ring emitted its signal only with a target "in sight" is only a guess, but I think it explains a lot.

I like the analysis of the two Nazgul - it's interesting how this brings some information about the individual Nazgul. In fact, it will make an interesting thread to try to find what we can collect about every individual Ringwraith, to give them some - though only very little - personality. Hmm...

I will be happy to start such a thread, based on LOTR, HOME 6-8, UT and the Reader Companion info. But will it be interesting for the people around here? I know nobody here yet.
Also, my preliminary estimate is that it will give us too little... except of course on Khamul and the WK, and that it will entail some conjecture as well.

probably they are other Nazgul than Khamul or WK (maybe even these "losers" from Bree? ), and they are flying, which is, I can't actually explain why, but I think different than if they were riding on the ground. They probably cannot concentrate much when flying anyway - less than on a horse, probably

They were probably some of the lesser nazgul: in early March 3019 both the WK and Khamul were probably quite busy preparing their respective fortresses for the coming war. I think Khamul did return to Dol Guldur and led the abortive attack on Lorien on March 15.

As for flying - it is interesting to note that the nazgul only got their Fell Beasts two months ago at best - maybe even more recently:

It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste.-Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) p.263

Maybe they were training over Dead Marches? Perhaps they were too intent on just staying in the saddle to look around much?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I will be happy to start such a thread, based on LOTR, HOME 6-8, UT and the Reader Companion info. But will it be interesting for the people around here? I know nobody here yet.
Also, my preliminary estimate is that it will give us too little... except of course on Khamul and the WK, and that it will entail some conjecture as well.

Well, but maybe we could track some Nazgul's identity, like "Nazgul #4 was the one who did this and this and this" and connect several events that concerned them... at least somehow... I'd say it's worth a try.

Originally Posted by Gordis

They were probably some of the lesser nazgul: in early March 3019 both the WK and Khamul were probably quite busy preparing their respective fortresses for the coming war. I think Khamul did return to Dol Guldur and led the abortive attack on Lorien on March 15.

Did he? It is true he was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur, but what about all the Nazgul flying around Pelennor and such? He definitely must have left Dol Guldur at least on some call before the Battle of Morannon. But wasn't he flying somewhere around above Pelennor even earlier?

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for flying - it is interesting to note that the nazgul only got their Fell Beasts two months ago at best - maybe even more recently:

It was no doubt at the end of 1418 that Sauron (S. likely aided by Angmar) bethought him of the winged mounts; and yet withheld them, until things became almost desperate and he was forced to launch his war in haste.-Marquette MSS 4/2/36 (The Hunt for the Ring) p.263

Maybe they were training over Dead Marches? Perhaps they were too intent on just staying in the saddle to look around much?

Yes, that's more or less what I meant Though it may seem funny, surely it ain't that easy, even for a Nazgul, to fly on the back of a Fell Beast.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, but maybe we could track some Nazgul's identity, like "Nazgul #4 was the one who did this and this and this" and connect several events that concerned them... at least somehow... I'd say it's worth a try.

OK, I shall try to prepare the first post. It will take some time, though.

Did he? It is true he was the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur, but what about all the Nazgul flying around Pelennor and such? He definitely must have left Dol Guldur at least on some call before the Battle of Morannon. But wasn't he flying somewhere around above Pelennor even earlier?

Nowhere it is said that all the 9 or at least 8 (as the WK preferred his horse) were flying above the Pelennor. It is likely that Khamul was away on March 15, leading the assault on Lorien. Another proof is that being the Second to the WK, Khamul didn't take command after the Black Captain was slain, but Gothmog did (who I always thought to be another nazgul).

I have already counted the nazgul previously on the Entmoot ... let me see... here:

On March 15 3019, two nazgul (Khamul + another) must have been in Dol-Guldur, as exactly on the same day both Lorien and Thranduil were attacked. Perhaps, even three nazgul were dispatched North, as there were 3 goals: Lorien, Thranduil and Dale-Erebor.

So we have the WK and 5-6 remaining nazgul.

One was in Mordor - just before dawn he came to Cirith Ungol and REMAINED there in charge of the tower.

Another flew to Mordor from Pelennor while hobbits were running from Cirith Ungol:

They started off again. They had not gone far when Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it. We had better keep still for a while.’ Crouched under a great boulder they sat facing back westward and did not speak for some time. Then Frodo breathed a sigh of relief. ‘It’s passed,’ he said. They stood up, and then they both stared in wonder. Away to their left, southward, against a sky that was turning grey, the peaks and high ridges of the great range began to appear dark and black, visible shapes. Light was growing behind them. -The Land of Shadow

Perhaps, this one was dispatched by the Witch-King to Sauron to complain about the unexpected light.

Then comes the third nazgul - again from Pelennor to Mordor:

As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.-The Land of Shadow

This one brought the news of the Witch-King's demise.

So 5-3=2
If Gothmog was one of the two, then only one (or two) nazgul are unaccounted for.
- Maybe he was sent with the news of the coming of Aragorn? Or he simply remained in charge in Minas Morgul? Or maybe he stayed with Sauron?
_____

As for the Black Gate battle, there were all the remaining 8 present, thus including Khamul.

Though it may seem funny, surely it ain't that easy, even for a Nazgul, to fly on the back of a Fell Beast.

And their training area was above the Dead Marches. It is much nicer to plummet down onto the slime of the Marches instead of the hard rocks of Gorgoroth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There exists at Marquette a full accounting of the Nazguls' movements from the attack on Osgiliath in June until the defeat at the Fords- it is this (with the Nazgul identified by letters A through I) which is excerpted in Unfinished Tales, and also in the Reader's companion (alas, with the identifying letters edited out). I might be able to see this published in full some day.

Unfortunately Tolkien made no such accounting for the War of the Ring- his notes refer to "a Nazgul," ''four Nazgul;" but aside from the WK none is identified, nor does he tell us if, for example, Khamul or some other was present for the attacks in the North.

[Gordis]

They edited out the letters in the texts published in RC? WHY???

I thought there should have been the letters for the individual nazgul - as in the drafts in HOME 7 the letters are there all right. Unfortunately, there are several versions - but not the final one.

Is their really any hope that the HUNT FOR THE RING will be published in full? *excited*