Dragon's Flame, Magical?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

But that quote from the book does say something about the other rings - read the sentence that begins with "It has been said..." Apparently dragon fire (though not of the cooler dragons existing at the point of time the War of the Rings took place) could melt the other Rings of Power, but not even the strongest (dragon) fire could melt the One Ring.

[Alfirin]

First a question, since all of the rings of power are accounted for at the beginning of the LOTR (the nine men's are on the nazgul, the seven dwarves are in sauron's keeping the three eleven are on Elrond's Gladriel's and Gandalf's fingers and the one is in Frodo's keeping) how exactly does anyone know that dragon fire will melt the lesser rings?
on the main note of this post I seem to recall that there were two kinds of dragon fire in ME. Most dragons fire was red-orange-yellow and I tedn to think that this was simply ordinary fire. But I beive tolkein said that some dragons could also breathe Green flames. Since fire does not, under normal circumstaces burn green (unless the dragons were eating a LOT of copper salts) I think that those flames may have had some sort of additonal power and could be considered "magic" in some manner." As for the Dragonproof armor of The Dwarves I've always just assumed that dwarves, being wise in nature of minerals simply know where to find asbestos and how to wave it into fireproof cloth which could be incroprted into armor. I also seem to recally that a key part of the armor was metal scrresn over the visors which gave the dwarves the advatage of being able to see through the dragons fire without buring their faces off

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

First a question, since all of the rings of power are accounted for at the beginning of the LOTR (the nine men's are on the nazgul, the seven dwarves are in sauron's keeping the three eleven are on Elrond's Gladriel's and Gandalf's fingers and the one is in Frodo's keeping) how exactly does anyone know that dragon fire will melt the lesser rings?

Well, "it is said", says Gandalf - it may not be true. However, you are not right about the Seven Rings of Dwarves. Sauron recovered only (darn, I never remember whether he recovered three and four remained or he recovered four and three remained), who cares, some of them, and the rest was consummed by the dragons. Here you go.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

But I beive tolkein said that some dragons could also breathe Green flames. Since fire does not, under normal circumstaces burn green (unless the dragons were eating a LOT of copper salts) I think that those flames may have had some sort of additonal power and could be considered "magic" in some manner."

I believe you are referring to this:

Originally Posted by The Hobbit

he soared blazing into the air and settled on the mountain-top in a spout of green and scarlet flame

Yes, this seems the most "magic" part of all. Though, who knows what happened inside the dragon's belly - but it was not a "normal" fire in any case. Btw, I'm not that knowledgeable on this field, but isn't the colour here saying something about the temperature? Ee, in case of gases probably not, huh?

[Alfirin]

But heat alone can't make fire turn green; the color/heat pattern for fire is the same one (quite logically) for magnitute of stars. From coolest to hottest it goes- red,orange,yellow, white, blue-white. Fire can't burn green witout help

But thanks for the ring clarification, that would explain how people know that dragon fire melts rings

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

But heat alone can't make fire turn green; the color/heat pattern for fire is the same one (quite logically) for magnitute of stars. From coolest to hottest it goes- red,orange,yellow, white, blue-white. Fire can't burn green witout help

Oh yes, of course (silly diletant )

[Dwarven Warrior]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

But heat alone can't make fire turn green; the color/heat pattern for fire is the same one (quite logically) for magnitute of stars. From coolest to hottest it goes- red,orange,yellow, white, blue-white. Fire can't burn green witout help.

But no other dragon other than Smaug has ever done this. I'm scurrying through my LotR books here, and I can't find anywhere else that it says that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Dwarven Warrior

But no other dragon other than Smaug has ever done this. I'm scurrying through my LotR books here, and I can't find anywhere else that it says that.

But it is probable the others did too, even though it isn't mentioned. Generalising is often dangerous, but at this time I believe we can take it granted for all dragons. In Roverandom, if I recall correctly, the Dragon of the Moon also did breathe green flames, even though it isn't a M-E story, it shows that Tolkien was quite fond of green fire so we could expect it from other dragons in his works as well. (Personally, I think it is some sort of expression from Tolkien to give "fairytale" quality to a "normal" fire - I wouldn't put it past him - and in that case, our question is solved: of course it was a "magic" fire.)

[cesar.ewok]

Túrin has some information regarding the spirit and the body of the dragon:

Originally Posted by Children of Húrin

His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him than in the might of his body, great though that be.

Though it's Túrin's own conclusion, if true, it would strongly suggest that the "fire" and the "hypnotizing" abilities come from the spirit, for the dragon proper is refered to as just the body (compare Túrins words: "His power is rather in the evil spirit that dwells within him").

Morgoth probably transferred subcreative power and lore to the drangon's spirit; a similar process took place with Sauron and the Witch-King:

Originally Posted by Letters, #210

There, put in command by Sauron, he [the Witch-king] is given an added demonic force.

Therefore, this wouldn't require the body of the dragon to possess an "indwelling fire" at all: the fire would be produced at the spitting. But, of course, the body would have to be strong enough to withstand the fire next to which it would stand.

Many suggested that the indwelling spirit would be lesser Maiar-like, but I found something possibly contrary in the Silmarillion:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

He [Glaurung] was yet young and scarce half-grown, for long and slow is the life of the dragons, but the Elves fled before him to Ered Wethrin and Dorthonion in dismay; and he defiled the fields of Ard-galen.

Would this suggest that dragons die, for "long and slow" are their lives? Would this be possible being them Maiar?

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Sauron recovered only (darn, I never remember whether he recovered three and four remained or he recovered four and three remained), who cares, some of them, and the rest was consummed by the dragons. Here you go.

Thank you Legate! That certainly proves that dragons can destroy rings of power. Although the dragons could have just eaten the rings.

Alfirin, thanks for mentioning the green dragon fire. I think ya'll have just answered my questions!