Werewolf XLII, Mist in the Barrow Downs

[Macalaure]

I read over Aganzir's posts again and decided that whatever I saw yesterday isn't there anymore.

Of McCaber I'm really not sure.

Shasta is a question mark, but he deserves to be left alive for a second Day once in a while.

Menel, Rikae, and Sally are innocent. Reason: feeling.

Gwatha hasn't said much and what he said wouldn't be overly alarming if only he hadn't played the "I'm confused about the rules"-card a little too often.

I just tried to paraphrase Nogrod's position on Lily, but it was not as easy as I thought it would be, so I'll just say I agree with him. Nogrod is making a lot of sense (although I disagree with many of his conclusions). Being "concise" suits him.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Something in the way that this comes so suddenly yet carefully formed just doesn't sit right with me. Besides, it urges people to act oddly and cause confusion. And most importantly, like Rikae here said, he takes care of acting somewhat weirdly himself - a great way of avoiding getting lynched, isn't it?"

Eh? What do you mean by "suddenly yet carefully formed"? And "Making people act oddly" is exactly what I had in mind. I never claimed it was otherwise.
Anyway, what's more suspicious is that this was preceded by

Originally Posted by Lommy

While I agree that he talks, in a way, sense

, which is a relativization of the suspicion that followed. Relativated suspicion manages to make me feel quite uneasy about people.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm still not sure what to make of Mac. Was he trying to set a wolf-trap, as he claims? Or is he furry himself, and backed away from his scheme when he saw ii wasn't working? Either way, it was a rather dangerous ploy. If he's a wolf, he risked drawing suspicion on himself– if not, he risked giving the wolves the go-ahead to lynch helpful innocents.

Of course, this is exactly what I did not have in mind. I was looking for those who were most eager to keep themselves out of trouble while adding tinder to the flames. For example, persons who ask questions without giving their own opinion hoping that other make up their minds to answer them in order to lynch an innocent without making ones hands bloody. Wait....

Originally Posted by Nerwen

what I'm curious about is what you would have done had it worked?

ummm, lynched the wolf?
...and what do you mean, had it worked.


Right now, I'm suspicious of A Wolfy Green, Thinwólfien, and Nerwolf, in a slight Day-One-ish way. In the same manner, I think Rikae, Nogrod, Menel, and Sally are innocent. Of the rest I'm unsure.

[Nerwen]

Like Sally before her, Nerwen staggered into the chamber, bruised and bleeding. "Curse this mist!" she muttered. "I must have walked into dozens of standing stones, not to mention rolling down a hill at one point.

But I thought I heard a voice– or voices– asking about the rules?

Delving in the depths of my Elvish memory, I seem to recall that there are three werewolves, no retractable votes (or if there are, the mods forgot to tell us), and that if there's a tie, the result will be decided by coin-toss. Everyone happy now?"

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Note: Hopefully I won't start a bandwagon on this poor guy but I feel useless if I don't vote and I've been completely out of whack the last couple days so I haven't been able to sort out a lot of today's posts. Besides, I know that if I don't vote before I go to bed (for I really am sick and therefore need to get some sleep) I won't vote at all because I won't want to get up in the morning. Here's hoping that the rest of you all enjoy the rest of your Day though, Shasta included (and for the record, I felt the urge to random since I couldn't come up with anything at the moment, so I figured I may as well give someone a good giggle with the pop/soda joke. I promise a substantial vote the next Day.)

Anyone else not like that last post of Sally's? She seems very eager to cover herself, doesn't she? (On the other hand, if she's indeed sick she may not be thinking clearly.)

Edit: X'd with Macalaure.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

ummm, lynched the wolf?
...and what do you mean, had it worked.

I mean, if your idea was to encourage the wolves to act silly, and to go after anyone who was being helpful (thus revealing themselves), how did you plan to accuse them– when you'd previously said what they were doing was the hallmark of innocence?

Edit: X'd with Legate.

[Thinlómien]

Thinlómien's player yawned and then she tried to cast a critical look at herself. "When I went to sleep and set the alarm clock, I did not of course realise that the deadline is so early that I have to play werewolf and vote before I leave to my little art thing..." she mumbled, looking at the computer screen. "Let's go then, and no novels this time."

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Yes... but actually, even casually stating your belief in a fellow-wolf's innocence can be rather risky. Once you're lynched and proven a wolf, anyone you said nice things about gets looked at very carefully.

Yes, but often they're just disregarded as possible double bluff.

Originally Posted by Mac

Eh? What do you mean by "suddenly yet carefully formed"?

I really can't explain it better than that.

Originally Posted by Mac

And "Making people act oddly" is exactly what I had in mind. I never claimed it was otherwise.

Does the fact that you admit you try to put this village into a state of confusion make the act less suspicious? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Mac

which is a relativization of the suspicion that followed. Relativated suspicion manages to make me feel quite uneasy about people.

That is jolly true, but you ought to know by now that I do it always.

I still think there's a wolf hiding among Mac and Rikae and therefore I'm going to vote

++Macalaure

because he seems more suspicious of the two.

And don't worry, if I'm still alive, I will be able to contribute more on the Days to come.

EDIT: xed with Agan x2

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I mean, if your idea was to encourage the wolves to act silly, and to go after anyone who was being helpful (thus revealing themselves), how did you plan to accuse them– when you'd previously said what they were doing was the hallmark of innocence?

You misunderstood me. The weird/conventional-thing was indeed only a bait. Once more, I was looking for people trying to encourage others to discuss that thing without getting involved and giving an opinion themselves. I was not looking for the helpful ones, I was looking for the uncontroversial (just to put a label on it) ones. I planned to accuse them exactly because of their behavior, and I don't think this would have been contradicting at all.
Legate is right: This stereotype isn't failsafe - of course not - but it's good enough until something really suspicious comes up from somebody.

Of those who have spoken this far, Mac looks the most suspicious. The way he seems to have decided to play is beyond my comprehension, and, well, he seems to be giving an over-honest impression. I said that his response (#81) to me was the most innocentish thing he had said during this day, but it really isn't, at least it's not somehow more innocent than his other posts. It's... when a wolf is trying people, it's more important than it is for an innocent to let everybody know that he wasn't being serious. I think Mac's eagerness to explain what he was doing looks like that.
He is saying things like "a wolf would have a reason to do what I did". When he's saying that while doing those things, it's easy to get the first impression that he can't be a wolf because if he was he wouldn't have said that. And that's the thing that worries me most about him.

Aganzir, I don't understand what you're trying to say. I never said anything like "a wolf would have a reason to do what I did". That's how some have interpreted me, and I jokingly agreed to it once. I'm eager to explain myself? Well, people have been eager to ask me to. And why do you say I was not serious just because I admitted I was laying out a bait for the wolves on a slow-going Day One? That doesn't make sense.

I re-revise my opinion of Aganzir: Possible wolf.

I also revise my opinion of Lommy: Misled innocent.

[Macalaure]

A minor, but interesting thing:

I said before I've been wondering about the rules-questions of Gwathagor. I think Gwath's questions (deadline, number of wolves) are strange because the answers can easily be taken from Farael's rules-post just before the game starts. If he listened to what has been spoken so far as attentively as he claims, how could he have overlooked it?

I think it's interesting to see that the only ones answering him are Nerwen and Aganzir (cross-posting their replies!), who happen to be my top suspects. Oh surprise.

It's probably pre-mature to construct such a thing, but I think it's possible that Nerwen and Aganzir told Gwath to act newbie-ish and ask questions. But when they realized that nobody is answering him, they took the duty onto themselves. Of course, it would have been silly for both of them to do it: that's where the cross-post comes into play. Evil minds think alike.

[Nogrod]

This is a weird Day indeed. Or then I just manage to read things in totally different way...

Firstly all those counterfactual oddities in which I see no sense for either an ordo or a wolf to say (Shasta and the towel, Menel referring to me saying Rikae talks nonsense, Gwatha not "knowing" how many wolves there are, what is the deadline...).

Secondly people backtracking or reinterpreting themselves in a hurry, like Greenie and Mac. Now what do I mean by that? I'll try to say it short and clear if I can.

Greenie made jokes to Sally and promised to "give a tight eye to her" but after being suspected on making serious suspicions on weak grounds she goes on to "admit" she had made them because she had read Sally carelessly. So why didn't she just say it was a joke as it clearly was one?

Mac's suggestion that we should look at those who try to avoid "rubbing people the wrong way" or those trying to be uncontroversial is all fine and dandy. It is a most reasonable stance indeed. But then suddenly everyone is talking about schemes to try and lure the wolves into being controversial and Mac behaving oddly - even Mac himself does it. Now am I the only only one who thinks this is fishy indeed? Why did Mac back away from a most reasonable position into this scheming-thingy after being suspected?

Maybe I'm just reading things in some warped way...

There are many whom I should take a closer look as they clearly have flown under my radar but I need to go shopping. I wil be back before deadline though.

And just to add... taking the feelings / intuition stuff in as well I do share Mac's bad feeling about Aganzir. I hope I can elaborate that when I come back.

EDIT: x'd with Mac

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

It's probably pre-mature to construct such a thing, but I think it's possible that Nerwen and Aganzir told Gwath to act newbie-ish and ask questions. But when they realized that nobody is answering him, they took the duty onto themselves. Of course, it would have been silly for both of them to do it: that's where the cross-post comes into play. Evil minds think alike.

Well, you ought to know. But why– in your scenario– would we need to answer him?

This does strike me as a little odd, though:

Originally Posted by Aganzir (replaying to Gwathagor)

With how many persons were you plotting last night?
There are three. It's stated in the post that started night 1. Asking that isn't going to make me think you must be innocent because you don't know that.

Could that be a wolf trying to cast suspicion an an ordo? Or a wolf warning her fellow that he's over-doing it? What do other people think?

Mac will probably jump on me now, and announce that I'm obviously trying to distance myself from my wolf-colleagues.

Edit: X'd with Nogrod.

[Rikae]

I had to get up early on a weekend... *grumbles*

I'm not sure why Legate finds me so unpleasant, but I'm getting a little tired of comments of this sort in every game, I must say. Oh well...

It seems to me that people are misinterpreting Macalaure's behavior - if I understand it correctly (as I think I now do), he was basically trying to stir the proverbial pot. Am I correct in thinking, Mac, that you didn't intend the content of your conversation-starter to be misleading, but rather were looking for wolvish behavior of hovering around the edges of a debate?
That's a noble endeavor, and one that does run the risk of attracting dangerous attention to oneself - my opinion at this point is that Macalaure is innocent as a little lamb.
As I'm confident in my assessment of Macalaure, the misrepresentation of his stance I see from Nerwen is alarming. For example:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

his "let's suspect anyone who sounds sensible" thing.

and

if your idea was to encourage the wolves to act silly, and to go after anyone who was being helpful (thus revealing themselves),

I also don't feel too comfortable with this:

Mac will probably jump on me now, and announce that I'm obviously trying to distance myself from my wolf-colleagues.

This is just too defensive and self-conscious. I daresay it's not the sort of thing that innocents usually come up with.
Aganzir is troubling as well, as she seems to be putting words in Mac's mouth.

What else? I don't find Menel suspicious, though he certainly makes it difficult with his single-minded and poorly-supported attacks on me. Still, that's like him, which, I fear, is why he tends to be lynched early on so often - giving flimsy reasons for his suspicions. From someone else it would be worrisome, but not from Menel.

Shasta - well, I'm tempted to vote for him simply because "I'm not going to be helpful and you can't make me... lalala" attitude (my interpretation) is downright annoying. No one likes day ones, but making an effort is, to my mind anyway, a responsibility to one's fellow players (even if they call you unpleasant... .) Still, I don't think it's necessarily wolfish behavior (and if he is a wolf, he can hardly use the same excuse toMorrow), and I wouldn't like to waste my vote.

Nogrod, I have to disagree that Greenie's comment about Sally was clearly a joke. The line in which she says it seems perfectly serious - I'm perfectly capable of following a serious suspicion with a joke, so I assumed Greenie was as well. After all, if there was nothing serious in her post, it would be decidedly unhelpful, so I assumed she was using the in-character stuff as a vehicle to voice a few suspicions.

Well, that's all for now, I guess... I'm leaning toward casting my vote for Nerwen at the moment, or possibly Aganzir.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Greenie made jokes to Sally and promised to "give a tight eye to her" but after being suspected on making serious suspicions on weak grounds she goes on to "admit" she had made them because she had read Sally carelessly. So why didn't she just say it was a joke as it clearly was one?

You got me wrong, I'm afraid. I didn't say it was a joke because it wasn't just a joke. Of course I wasn't being entirely serious, and was posting in-character (and having a character which might seem, well, joke-ish). Bah. I might as well explain it thoroughly, since you guys don't seem to understand just how trivial this matter is.

I read Sally's post (not quite as carefully as I maybe should have) and interpreted it as a semi-serious suspicion behind a joke-ish in-character post. I wasn't sure at all, that early in the game, and her "suspicion" of Nogrod seemed fishy to me. Therefore I mentioned it in my post. However, my in-character role and the insignificant details of the post (like the "throwing pillows is evil behaviour" -thing and all that stuff) might have made it look like a joke among jokes. I keep wondering how certain people could interpret it as a serious suspicion on Sally. Though I found her statement about Noggins slightly fishy, it doesn't mean I think she is a wolf, it was just a detail I paid attention to. Then when I was accused of "failing to see that Sally was joking", I re-read her post and concluded that she probably was.

Is that enough?

Also, to Lommy:

Originally Posted by Lommie

That kind of friendliness (note the smiley) just seems all too wrong to me, it actually reminds me of my wolf attitude - I've made a post just like that as a wolf. There's something quite feigned in the tone and that "did I explain understandably?"+smilie combination."

Well. If you want me to explain why I used a smilie, then I can tell you that it was because I thought "Was that answer enough, or do you want me to explain some more?" sounds much more aggressive and annoyed than I felt.

Then to business.

Mac's theory on Nerwen, Agan and Gwath being the wolves was very interesting, but I don't think it is a valid reason to suspect Nerwen or Agan that they answer Gwath's inquiries about game rules. I would have done the same had I been online then. Nevertheless I'll probably be watching the interactions between the three of them more closely after Mac's find.
Even though I don't find Nerwen and Agan's behaviour especially wolvish, I do find Gwathy's questions a little disturbing. Why not read things like that from the rules post? That reminds me of my first game ever as a wolf, when I wanted to underline my newbieness to use it as an explanation for my oddities ("I'm just a silly newbie, I don't know how the game works!"). Otherwise he looks quite genuine except for his slight eagerness to agree with more experienced players.

Agan looks innocentish, which in her case means that she is probably a wolf. She is perhaps a bit less wary or, should we say, neat (if you get what I mean) than she has been in the two other games I've had with her (and she was a wolf in both). Leaning towards innocent, I guess.

Sally's apparently random vote on Shasta was really weird, as was her regretful tone of "I hope there won't be a bandwagon on this poor fellow". It was like "I don't want you lynched but I vote for you all the same". I would definitely like to have an explanation from Sally on Day 2 if she doesn't appear before DL and doesn't get lynched. I don't think a wolf would have acted that way - though I don't understand behaviour like that from an ordo, either. So, I'm very confused about her.

Rikae's overall confidence is slightly alarming, especially in Mac's case.

Originally Posted by Rikae

my opinion at this point is that Macalaure is innocent as a little lamb.

Just a trivial matter, but the "innocent as a little lamb" brings me in mind of some big bad wolf in a fable prowling around little lambs.

Also Legate's post made me uneasy, I can't put my finger on it but there was a sense of falseness in it, be it the over-cheerful "All right, friends!" -attitude or something else.

That's about all I have in mind for now. I'll be back to vote before the deadline, though I don't know who I'm going to vote for yet. The people I'm most uneasy with at the moment are probably Sally, Gwath, Rikae and Legate. I reserve the right to change my opinion on them if they give me reason to change it.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Rikae's overall confidence is slightly alarming, especially in Mac's case. Just a trivial matter, but the "innocent as a little lamb" brings me in mind of some big bad wolf in a fable prowling around little lambs.

I haven't been wrong about Mac in ages. That's why I focus on "testing" him early on - he's the easiest person to read, for me.
As for the little lamb, I was indeed thinking of wolves and lambs, as in "either Mac is an innocent lamb or a wolf in sheep's clothing."
My first phrase was "pure as the driven snow and innocent as a cute little lamb. With a ribbon around its neck. In a field of daises. With a halo." But I thought that might be a tad over-the-top.

[Nogrod]

(OOC: LG and I are sharing the computer so we'll be able to post less than we might otherwise do...)

I quess I'm buying Greenie's explanation for the moment but I'm still a bit worried about Mac - and Rikae's latest confidence in Mac didn't ease my situation a bit as the old idea I thought I could get myself rid of ("when they both are in a game they are either wolves or lovers of which at least the other one is a wolf") started emerging in the back of my head.

Still I do agree with Rikae on Shasta - and about Nerwen, especially on the "too self-conscious" thing.

Also Sally's vote kind of makes me think about suggesting lynching her just out of pure annoyance. When one declares that one's vote is random there is nothing anyone can think or say about that "choice" as it is no choice and thence it leaves no tracks. That is either a cowardly way of playing or a clumsy trick by a wolf.

Also it's interesting that while announcing her vote to be random that random vote was indeed Shasta. Now with no disregard to Shasta I'd say that was the easiest or smoothest choice, something she might have thought wouldn't be jumped on by anyone... or a vote someone she voted for would come back at her. So was it a random-vote at all or just claimed random-vote? I'm thinking it was the latter and if I'm correct that looks very bad indeed.

You others have already pointed out all the backtracking she made alongside her vote (all the sorrys & hopefully I'm not starting a bandwaggon etc...).

[Nerwen]

Okay, I guess I'm going to be voting for either Mac or Sally. A Little Green sounds better to me after her last post, and I don't want to lynch Gwathagor toDay, since he's new. Besides, I don't really find him that suspicious.

I can't understand why Rikae is so convinced Mac is innocent or why she claims to suspect those who suspect him. I'm trying to be as objective as I can, and I think he's been behaving in a notably peculiar way. And far from "misrepresenting" him, I was simply honestly saying what I thought he meant.

Sally's vote for Shasta was perhaps the single most wolfish thing anyone has done today. Or rather, not the vote itself, since Shasta was already under a bit of suspicion, but the reasons she gave for it. On the other hand– this is Sally we're talking about. She's always weird. Also, it seems she's ill, which may account for some of the extra weirdness.

I'm still not sure what to do.

Edit: ran out of time. Sorry.
2nd edit (at peril of modwrath): X'd with everyone since Mac at #121.