Microphones in Middle-earth...the BBC Lord of the Rings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 02-10-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

It isn't perfect - some of the sound effects are a bit ropey - I always think Gollumis being tortured with an empty stapler and later Legolas' bow string will have a very rubber band-like sound !

They are. And yet it doesn't matter. I think that you get so drawn into the drama that it hardly registers on you that the effects aren't quite convincing. In a production like this the effects aren't as 'in your face' (in your ears?) as in the movie, as long as you get the idea they've served their purpose. That said, apparently they spent a good deal of time & effort on them.

As an aside I'll just point out that one of the things I'm grateful to this series for is that I can now recall whole chunks of Tolkien's dialogue, because I've heard this so many times & they took so much straight off the page.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 02-10-2008, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

They are. And yet it doesn't matter. I think that you get so drawn into the drama that it hardly registers on you that the effects aren't quite convincing.

Obviously it does matter and you did register, otherwise Mith would not have commented and if she did your reply would have been "really? I did not notice"

davem · 02-11-2008, 07:27 AM

Looking through the booklet that accompanies the LotR stageshow cast recording I noticed that, while not endorsing the production, the Estate had given the official translator complete access to all Tolkien's linguistic writings to use in his work. Taken along with the great efforts CT went to in helping the adaptors of this production, its clear that they are not the over-possessive 'ogres' they are sometimes made out to be as far as the use of Tolkien's material is concerned. JRRT may only have sold the movie rights to LotR & TH, but in this series Sibley & Bakewell used a section of Unfinished Tales & Christopher approved this (well, to the extent that he approved the scripts before they started production). OK, the radio rights are different to the film rights, but CT clearly had no problem with his father's other works being used

The recording CT made (I've heard the first few minutes of it) is interesting, & shows that he had an appreciation of the difficulties of dramatisation & wanted to help out as much as he could in making this a faithful adaptation of his father's work.

BTW, this recording is the only acknowledgment I've come across that the 'infamous' mistake on the original LotR map - which has the name Hithaeglir for the Misty Mountains spelled 'Hithaeglin' - was down to Christopher: one of the words Sibley had asked him to pronounce. Christopher acknowledges it was his fault. An interesting bit of trivia about the production then - Sibley must have been using the first edition map, as the mistake was corrected for the Second Edition, where it appears correctly as Hithaeglir.

davem · 02-17-2008, 09:11 AM

The transcript of the episode can be found here http://www.tolkienradio.com/blackriders.html.

We ended the first episode with Gandalf imprisoned at Orthanc & Frodo making preparations to move to Crickhollow, & this one will take us as far as Bree.

I suppose the first thing many will notice is the introduction of an entirely new scene: Gandalf coming before Theoden & requesting a horse, & being told to take one & begone. And the second thing is the introduction of an episode from The Hunt for the Ring from Unfinished Tales. I don't know whether Brian Sibley (the adaptor) asked permission from Christopher Tolkien to use this episode beforehand, or just took the chance & included it. Either way Christopher approved its use & its in there. Whether for good or ill is a matter of personal opinion - it opens up the story certainly, & introduces the Black Riders not as mysterious figures coming out of nowhere to hunt down the Hobbits, but as a group with a definite agenda. What the scene also makes clear is that Saruman does not fear them, & goes so far as to send them off with a flea in their collective ears. What this addition also does is to add to the sense of urgency - Gandalf has just escaped Orthanc & is headed north to the Shire on Shadowfax, & the Riders are just behind.

So there is new material, but there are also some omissions - Fatty Bolger is missed out, as is Gildor - though originally Sibley included him. Unfortunately, time constraints meant that either Gildor or Farmer Maggot had to go, & Sibley felt that the incident with Maggot enhanced the drama & gave more background information to the listener, so Gildor had to go. And, of course, the major omission is the whole Old Forest/Bombadil/Barrow Downs episode - again, time constraints meant it could not be included (though Sibley came back to the episode some years later & dramatised it, once again for BBC radio).

One nice thing about this adaptation, & something that makes it feel more 'authentic', is the presence of the poems & songs. Another is the extent to which the adaptors have tried to stick as far as possible to Tolkien's original storyline. Merry & Pippin are introduced into the story as they are in the book, & the Crickhollow/Conspiracy Unmasked storyline are kept.

Also kept are Gwaihir (a nice touch which brings home that the Great Eagles of Middle-earth are not just big birds - a failing in the movie), & Gandalf's letter & most of the Bree episode. This is a much more authentic Bree, pleasant, comfortable - a haven from the night: as Tolkien intended. And, as with Nighy's Sam, I think James Grout's Butterbur is the definitive portrayal of that character.

So, did Sibley & Bakewell succeed here? Did they capture the spirit of the book - did their 'opening out' of the story to include Gandalf's escape & the Rider's arrival at Orthanc draw you in, or should they have kept to Tolkien's slow revealing of the background?

William Cloud Hicklin · 02-17-2008, 09:22 AM

Whoa, whoa, whoa there, Tex!

Isn't posting this material on Youtube a copyright violation? And linking to it a violation of Forum rules?

davem · 02-17-2008, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Whoa, whoa, whoa there, Tex!

Isn't posting this material on Youtube a copyright violation? And linking to it a violation of Forum rules?

Well, not that I was aware. I think the BBC do have a You Tube section & put stuff on there legally. However, I'm happy to remove the links till I know one way or the other.

If the transcripts are also illegal I'll remove them. If anything else is illegal I'll remove that. In fact if anyone wants to point up anything I do, have done, or am likely to do at any unspecified point up to, including & after my death, I will happily act upon it to the extent that I am able.

It would be nice to have the offences (if such they are) pointed up politely though, rather than doing the cowboy thing.....

EDIT Here we go, the BBC's OFFICIAL You tube section http://uk.youtube.com/user/bbcworldwide. Now, you see the problem - if the BBC are putting some of their stuff on YT themselves its a bit difficult to tell, if you find BBC stuff on the site, whether its there legally or illegally. If someone can confirm the LotR series is there legally I'll restore the links.

Lalwendë · 02-17-2008, 02:12 PM

I loved how this episode began with some very bad sound effects for poor Gwaihir! An unintentional laugh

But then something struck me which I've never really thought about before. When Saruman mocks Radagast as "Radagast the bird-tamer" I'd just registered this as a dig at Radagast's Bill Oddie tendencies, but really, this is a dig at Radagast's comradeship with the Eagles! I must go back to the book now and see what else Saruman mocks him for because I can't remember the full line...

Grima here sounds much more realistic as a King's adviser or counsel. He's not so overly oily as Grima in the films (much as I enjoyed Brad Dourif's uber-Goth Grima

) and this seems much more realistic to me; you can imagine a King choosing this man as his closest adviser. The Nazgul also sound less animalistic; we hear the Lord of the Nazgul talk and he just sounds like a Man, not a cat yawling because someone's stood on his tail (or like a pig being slaughtered, which is what the Nazgul sound like in the films...). Butterbur is just great...check out The Box Of Delights which the same actor is in.

I was pleased with the music in this episode. It sounds so much more like genuine folk music than some of the horrid New Age stuff in the film soundtrack (most of it not by Howard Shore but by Enya - sorry, she's totally not to my taste). And like English music instead of Celtic music too.

And there was another funny moment where the Gaffer is being interrogated by one of the Nazgul and he pauses as though he's about to say "P.... Off" but then doesn't! If you listen to it you will know exactly what I mean!

02-11-2008, 07:27 AM	#3
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Looking through the booklet that accompanies the LotR stageshow cast recording I noticed that, while not endorsing the production, the Estate had given the official translator complete access to all Tolkien's linguistic writings to use in his work. Taken along with the great efforts CT went to in helping the adaptors of this production, its clear that they are not the over-possessive 'ogres' they are sometimes made out to be as far as the use of Tolkien's material is concerned. JRRT may only have sold the movie rights to LotR & TH, but in this series Sibley & Bakewell used a section of Unfinished Tales & Christopher approved this (well, to the extent that he approved the scripts before they started production). OK, the radio rights are different to the film rights, but CT clearly had no problem with his father's other works being used The recording CT made (I've heard the first few minutes of it) is interesting, & shows that he had an appreciation of the difficulties of dramatisation & wanted to help out as much as he could in making this a faithful adaptation of his father's work. BTW, this recording is the only acknowledgment I've come across that the 'infamous' mistake on the original LotR map - which has the name Hithaeglir for the Misty Mountains spelled 'Hithaeglin' - was down to Christopher: one of the words Sibley had asked him to pronounce. Christopher acknowledges it was his fault. An interesting bit of trivia about the production then - Sibley must have been using the first edition map, as the mistake was corrected for the Second Edition, where it appears correctly as Hithaeglir. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

02-17-2008, 09:11 AM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Episode 2 The Black Riders The transcript of the episode can be found here http://www.tolkienradio.com/blackriders.html. We ended the first episode with Gandalf imprisoned at Orthanc & Frodo making preparations to move to Crickhollow, & this one will take us as far as Bree. I suppose the first thing many will notice is the introduction of an entirely new scene: Gandalf coming before Theoden & requesting a horse, & being told to take one & begone. And the second thing is the introduction of an episode from The Hunt for the Ring from Unfinished Tales. I don't know whether Brian Sibley (the adaptor) asked permission from Christopher Tolkien to use this episode beforehand, or just took the chance & included it. Either way Christopher approved its use & its in there. Whether for good or ill is a matter of personal opinion - it opens up the story certainly, & introduces the Black Riders not as mysterious figures coming out of nowhere to hunt down the Hobbits, but as a group with a definite agenda. What the scene also makes clear is that Saruman does not fear them, & goes so far as to send them off with a flea in their collective ears. What this addition also does is to add to the sense of urgency - Gandalf has just escaped Orthanc & is headed north to the Shire on Shadowfax, & the Riders are just behind. So there is new material, but there are also some omissions - Fatty Bolger is missed out, as is Gildor - though originally Sibley included him. Unfortunately, time constraints meant that either Gildor or Farmer Maggot had to go, & Sibley felt that the incident with Maggot enhanced the drama & gave more background information to the listener, so Gildor had to go. And, of course, the major omission is the whole Old Forest/Bombadil/Barrow Downs episode - again, time constraints meant it could not be included (though Sibley came back to the episode some years later & dramatised it, once again for BBC radio). One nice thing about this adaptation, & something that makes it feel more 'authentic', is the presence of the poems & songs. Another is the extent to which the adaptors have tried to stick as far as possible to Tolkien's original storyline. Merry & Pippin are introduced into the story as they are in the book, & the Crickhollow/Conspiracy Unmasked storyline are kept. Also kept are Gwaihir (a nice touch which brings home that the Great Eagles of Middle-earth are not just big birds - a failing in the movie), & Gandalf's letter & most of the Bree episode. This is a much more authentic Bree, pleasant, comfortable - a haven from the night: as Tolkien intended. And, as with Nighy's Sam, I think James Grout's Butterbur is the definitive portrayal of that character. So, did Sibley & Bakewell succeed here? Did they capture the spirit of the book - did their 'opening out' of the story to include Gandalf's escape & the Rider's arrival at Orthanc draw you in, or should they have kept to Tolkien's slow revealing of the background? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 02-22-2008 at 04:43 PM.

02-17-2008, 09:22 AM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Whoa, whoa, whoa there, Tex! Isn't posting this material on Youtube a copyright violation? And linking to it a violation of Forum rules? __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

02-17-2008, 02:12 PM	#7
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I loved how this episode began with some very bad sound effects for poor Gwaihir! An unintentional laugh But then something struck me which I've never really thought about before. When Saruman mocks Radagast as "Radagast the bird-tamer" I'd just registered this as a dig at Radagast's Bill Oddie tendencies, but really, this is a dig at Radagast's comradeship with the Eagles! I must go back to the book now and see what else Saruman mocks him for because I can't remember the full line... Grima here sounds much more realistic as a King's adviser or counsel. He's not so overly oily as Grima in the films (much as I enjoyed Brad Dourif's uber-Goth Grima ) and this seems much more realistic to me; you can imagine a King choosing this man as his closest adviser. The Nazgul also sound less animalistic; we hear the Lord of the Nazgul talk and he just sounds like a Man, not a cat yawling because someone's stood on his tail (or like a pig being slaughtered, which is what the Nazgul sound like in the films...). Butterbur is just great...check out The Box Of Delights which the same actor is in. I was pleased with the music in this episode. It sounds so much more like genuine folk music than some of the horrid New Age stuff in the film soundtrack (most of it not by Howard Shore but by Enya - sorry, she's totally not to my taste). And like English music instead of Celtic music too. And there was another funny moment where the Gaffer is being interrogated by one of the Nazgul and he pauses as though he's about to say "P.... Off" but then doesn't! If you listen to it you will know exactly what I mean! __________________ Gordon's alive!