"People do not decide to become extraordinary.... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rikae · 02-20-2008, 06:27 PM

I'll just add -- I wouldn't even say characters like Aragorn really "decide to do extraordinary things", at least not directly. All the "good guys" insofar as they are good, actually seem to lack ambition entirely and simply seek to fulfill their responsibilities. I never had the impression that Aragorn, for instance, cared much for being king for its own sake, he did what he had to do out of, presumably, a combination of love for Arwen and duty to defend the people of Middle-Earth.

Galadriel55 · 05-23-2011, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'll just add -- I wouldn't even say characters like Aragorn really "decide to do extraordinary things", at least not directly. All the "good guys" insofar as they are good, actually seem to lack ambition entirely and simply seek to fulfill their responsibilities. I never had the impression that Aragorn, for instance, cared much for being king for its own sake, he did what he had to do out of, presumably, a combination of love for Arwen and duty to defend the people of Middle-Earth.

I second that! I highly doubt that Aragorn ever thought "Hm. I think I should do something to make people think I'm extraordinary. Why not travel to Orodruin while protecting the Ring?"

I think it's more realistic that he felt this kind of duty fall on his head like it did on Bilbo's when he left without a handkerchief, and on Frodo's when he found out what his ring really was and what responsibility he had. And the higher the duty, the more "extraordinary" a person is considered to be.

And IMO, the only way to become a "fantastic hero" is to start off as the most "ordinary chap" and do something un-ordinary.

Mithalwen · 05-23-2011, 05:36 PM

No but Aragorn was born to a high fate - such a high one that it was concealed from him until he reached adulthood - though whether to give him a "normal" childhood (if that is even a relevant concept if you are a mortal child being raised among elflords - or to try to prevent him becoming a bumptious little brat is unknowm. Aragorn is not an ordinary man and is acutely aware of his destiny - he carries the brioken sword around with him.. impractical but highly symbolic. Sam is a gardner and his motivation simpler.

Galadriel55 · 05-23-2011, 08:15 PM

Also true. But still, had it been up to him, I think Aragorn would rather have been ordinary than go through all that gruesome war business. But he didn't have a choice. As you said, he was pre-destined.

SlverGlass · 05-23-2011, 11:13 PM

This thread made me think. According to me, Tolkien's characters did just what they thought they should do. Whether this 'should do' is born out of a sense of rightness or something else entirely, I know not. But one thing is for sure, no one set out on the quest thinking of fame or glory.

As Rikae pointed out, Aragorn did what he had to do. There was no way out of him, other than exiling himself, which would have been a poor choice.

Legolas was an elf, the prince of a realm. He didn't need to deliberately put himself in harm's way. However, we can only speculate as to his intentions. It might have born out of the sense of guilt, as he let Gollum escape, or friendship might have prompted him. We don't know, we can only guess.

Now for Samwise Gamgee. He is one interesting character. He cared for Frodo a lot and this simple feeling of caring and friendship crafted him a place in the legends. However, it is my thought, that Sam's mind and heart greatly resembled that of a kid. He danced at the thought of going on an adventure, cried out at the thought of seeing elves and when the going got tough, he simply held on to his beliefs with both hands. This simplicity of his made it possible for him to be the force behind Frodo's journey.

A wiser or a more 'noble' person would probably have failed to attain what the quest demanded. Destroying the ring needed simplicity, needed humbleness and discretion. And all of these all are hard-pressed to find in nobility.

At the end of the day, it does not matter what you are destined to do, but rather what you did do. And here exactly lay the strengths of the hobbits, all of them. They did what they had to and emerged as heroes.

Heroes are those who do great things. They may be noble or simple. However, a person can be called a hero if he does great things and not otherwise. Motivation notwithstanding.

Galadriel55 · 05-24-2011, 04:24 PM

You say that Aragorn was predestined and that he didn't have a choice. I think that everybody - always - has a choice. Maybe not much of a choice to someone as noble (and even less so) as Aragorn, but it's still there. What stopped all of ME from becoming orc-like beings? Their choice not to be such.

I don't realy like the word "predestined", because it sounds like "your fate is predetermined and everything that you may or may not do is already taken into account and it won't change anything". Which contradicts my above statement.

In other words, Aragorn was "meant" to rule the Reunited Kingdom... just as much as Arvedui was. The latter's prophecy mentioned the "other choice", and Aragorn's didn't - there were just a bunch of things from everywhere: Malbeth's words about the Pths of the Dead, Galadriel's advise, Ioreth's poem... But Aragorn didn't need to go through the Paths because of the words of someone long dead. He went because of a number of reasons - saving ME, saving his country and city, wanting to help ad put his full contribution into the War, etc.

He didn't need to go there, but he went. And that is one example of the many deeds that IMO make him a hero, and extraordinary.

So, my point -

“You don’t have to be a fantastic hero to do certain things – ... You can be just an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated.”

In order to become that hero, you first need to actually do the things.

SlverGlass · 05-24-2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You say that Aragorn was predestined and that he didn't have a choice. I think that everybody - always - has a choice. Maybe not much of a choice to someone as noble (and even less so) as Aragorn, but it's still there. What stopped all of ME from becoming orc-like beings? Their choice not to be such.

I don't realy like the word "predestined", because it sounds like "your fate is predetermined and everything that you may or may not do is already taken into account and it won't change anything". Which contradicts my above statement.

In other words, Aragorn was "meant" to rule the Reunited Kingdom... just as much as Arvedui was. The latter's prophecy mentioned the "other choice", and Aragorn's didn't - there were just a bunch of things from everywhere: Malbeth's words about the Pths of the Dead, Galadriel's advise, Ioreth's poem... But Aragorn didn't need to go through the Paths because of the words of someone long dead. He went because of a number of reasons - saving ME, saving his country and city, wanting to help ad put his full contribution into the War, etc.

You make a fair point, Galadriel. It is true that everyone has a choice. A choice to choose between good and evil. Or a choice to sit back and do nothing. Aragorn was meant to rule the kingdom; yes. But the choice was his own. That is what makes him a hero.

If someone treads a particular path simply because he/she has no choice, I wouldn't call that person a hero. For me, Sam, Merry and Pippin (among the hobbits) are more of a hero that Frodo. As Frodo's choice was very limited, he sort of had to do it.

However, even though believe that Aragorn was a great person, I admire Legolas and Gimli more. They did what they did despite the fact that they didn't have to. They had complete freedom of choice, unlike Aragorn. If nothing, Aragorn would have had to make that journey if he had to wed Arwen.

Boromir did what he had to, to save his white city. What choice he had was no choice at all, since he loved his city so much. And Gandalf; he is a great person but not a hero (according to me). 'Choices' can include a great many things. However, not all of them can be applicable.

In the end our choices make us what and who we are, though our love of certain things/persons and our sense of rightness defines it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What stopped all of ME from becoming orc-like beings? Their choice not to be such.

I am sorry but I don't really agree with this particular point, Galadriel. Becoming orcs or any other embodiment of evil was no choice at all. The people of ME (most of them) had their pride and their determination, if nothing else. If we have to drag the matter of choice to a level where good and evil clashes, then Sauron or even Melkor would not have had to work so hard to establish their dominion.

Everybody has choices, this is very very true. But the extent of those choices are certainly limited. Not for all, but for most.

05-23-2011, 05:36 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	No but Aragorn was born to a high fate - such a high one that it was concealed from him until he reached adulthood - though whether to give him a "normal" childhood (if that is even a relevant concept if you are a mortal child being raised among elflords - or to try to prevent him becoming a bumptious little brat is unknowm. Aragorn is not an ordinary man and is acutely aware of his destiny - he carries the brioken sword around with him.. impractical but highly symbolic. Sam is a gardner and his motivation simpler. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

05-23-2011, 08:15 PM	#4
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,517	Also true. But still, had it been up to him, I think Aragorn would rather have been ordinary than go through all that gruesome war business. But he didn't have a choice. As you said, he was pre-destined. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-24-2011, 04:24 PM	#6
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,517	You say that Aragorn was predestined and that he didn't have a choice. I think that everybody - always - has a choice. Maybe not much of a choice to someone as noble (and even less so) as Aragorn, but it's still there. What stopped all of ME from becoming orc-like beings? Their choice not to be such. I don't realy like the word "predestined", because it sounds like "your fate is predetermined and everything that you may or may not do is already taken into account and it won't change anything". Which contradicts my above statement. In other words, Aragorn was "meant" to rule the Reunited Kingdom... just as much as Arvedui was. The latter's prophecy mentioned the "other choice", and Aragorn's didn't - there were just a bunch of things from everywhere: Malbeth's words about the Pths of the Dead, Galadriel's advise, Ioreth's poem... But Aragorn didn't need to go through the Paths because of the words of someone long dead. He went because of a number of reasons - saving ME, saving his country and city, wanting to help ad put his full contribution into the War, etc. He didn't need to go there, but he went. And that is one example of the many deeds that IMO make him a hero, and extraordinary. So, my point - “You don’t have to be a fantastic hero to do certain things – ... You can be just an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated.” In order to become that hero, you first need to actually do the things. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 05-24-2011 at 04:28 PM.

02-20-2008, 06:27 PM	#1
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	I'll just add -- I wouldn't even say characters like Aragorn really "decide to do extraordinary things", at least not directly. All the "good guys" insofar as they are good, actually seem to lack ambition entirely and simply seek to fulfill their responsibilities. I never had the impression that Aragorn, for instance, cared much for being king for its own sake, he did what he had to do out of, presumably, a combination of love for Arwen and duty to defend the people of Middle-Earth.

05-23-2011, 11:13 PM	#5
SlverGlass Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 17	This thread made me think. According to me, Tolkien's characters did just what they thought they should do. Whether this 'should do' is born out of a sense of rightness or something else entirely, I know not. But one thing is for sure, no one set out on the quest thinking of fame or glory. As Rikae pointed out, Aragorn did what he had to do. There was no way out of him, other than exiling himself, which would have been a poor choice. Legolas was an elf, the prince of a realm. He didn't need to deliberately put himself in harm's way. However, we can only speculate as to his intentions. It might have born out of the sense of guilt, as he let Gollum escape, or friendship might have prompted him. We don't know, we can only guess. Now for Samwise Gamgee. He is one interesting character. He cared for Frodo a lot and this simple feeling of caring and friendship crafted him a place in the legends. However, it is my thought, that Sam's mind and heart greatly resembled that of a kid. He danced at the thought of going on an adventure, cried out at the thought of seeing elves and when the going got tough, he simply held on to his beliefs with both hands. This simplicity of his made it possible for him to be the force behind Frodo's journey. A wiser or a more 'noble' person would probably have failed to attain what the quest demanded. Destroying the ring needed simplicity, needed humbleness and discretion. And all of these all are hard-pressed to find in nobility. At the end of the day, it does not matter what you are destined to do, but rather what you did do. And here exactly lay the strengths of the hobbits, all of them. They did what they had to and emerged as heroes. Heroes are those who do great things. They may be noble or simple. However, a person can be called a hero if he does great things and not otherwise. Motivation notwithstanding.