LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 02 - The Shadow of the Past

[davem]

Sam fell on his knees, trembling. 'Get up, Sam!' said Gandalf. 'I have thought of something better than that. Something to shut your mouth, and punish you properly for listening. You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!'
'Me, sir!' cried Sam, springing up like a dog invited for a walk. 'Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!' he shouted, and then burst into tears.

From Njal's Saga:

Then Gunnar rode from the Thing west to the Dales, till he came to Hjardarholt, and Olaf the Peacock gave him a hearty welcome. There he sat half a month, and rode far and wide about the Dales, and all welcomed him with joyful hands. But at their parting Olaf said, "I will give thee three things of price, a gold ring, and a cloak which Moorkjartan the Erse king owned, and a hound that was given me in Ireland; he is big, and no worse follower than a sturdy man. Besides, it is part of his nature that he has man's wit, and he will bay at every man whom he knows is thy foe, but never at thy friends; he can see, too, in any man's face, whether he means thee well or ill, and he will lay down his life to be true to thee. This hound's name is Sam."

After that he spoke to the hound, "Now shalt thou follow Gunnar, and do him all the service thou canst."

The hound went at once to Gunnar and laid himself down at his feet.

Well, it made me think.....

[Pervinca Took]

Samr of Brennu-Njal's Saga makes me think of Sam of LOTR too. Although I suppose Sam doesn't immediately see that Strider is not an enemy and means them harm, not good, and he can have a bit of a blind-spot when it comes to Gollum, too. It's partly the jealous/possessive side of Sam's love, the pride and possessiveness which Tolkien saw as inevitable in someone who provided such service as Sam did. But it's also Sam's long habit of caution and innate common-sense, of course.

[Thinlómien]

So, Legate and I are sitting on our sofa, reading this chapter and discussing Gandalf. He's a major presence in this chapter - probably half of the narration is actually his monologue. I love his voice and he's a great character but never tell me Gandalf is a boring goody two shoes mentor character. He's a horrible besserwisser, very arrogant (despite being humbler than say Saruman) and quite ruthless.

Every time I read this chapter I find his treatment of Gollum a little more off-putting, basically everything from the torture to the loathing way he talks about him. He implies Gollum deserves Frodo's pity, yet he has very little pity for Gollum himself. Also, Gandalf isn't exactly known for "the end justifies the means" attitude - that's more Saruman's cup of tea - but when I think of him and Gollum, I think maybe he should be.

Another thing I was paying attention to - okay this will probably take us a bit off topic and would probably merit a thread of its own - was the difference between Bilbo and Frodo as Ringbearers, and how important it is that Bilbo gave the Ring away freely - even Frodo, the steadfast pacifist martyr could not do it. (Well, he went through a lot worse things than Bilbo ever did and was under an entirely different strain, but this is still thematically and symbolically important.) Gandalf also stresses that the Ring had so little power over Bilbo because his first deed as a Ringbearer stemmed of pity.

Now this made me think, what was Frodo's first significant deed wearing the Ring? I think of Weathertop and stabbing the Witch-King. Is that why Frodo had such a difficult relationship with the Ring? But Frodo act courageously and in self-defense, in Elbereth's name and against the Dark Powers. It's hard to think of that as a bad thing.

Lastly, a small thing. Did Gollum really eat human babies?!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Every time I read this chapter I find his treatment of Gollum a little more off-putting, basically everything from the torture to the loathing way he talks about him. He implies Gollum deserves Frodo's pity, yet he has very little pity for Gollum himself. Also, Gandalf isn't exactly known for "the end justifies the means" attitude - that's more Saruman's cup of tea - but when I think of him and Gollum, I think maybe he should be.

It certainly sounds quite scary there, what he does to Gollum. What does "I put the fear of fire on him" mean, anyway? Gandalf is being awfully vague, that is most certainly not a normal expression and I would like to know what he means there. Somehow I don't think it just means picking up a torch and waving it menacingly. It feels like something... deeper.

When I read this now, I have been also thinking that the expression reminds me of something else, something creepy someone else does, maybe some Ringwraith later on. Then I realised: it reminded me of what happens to the squint-eyed Southerner in one of the versions of the Hunt for the Ring in the Unfinished Tales. When running an errand for Saruman, he stumbles upon the Nazgul who are riding North, and they question him, learn where the Shire is, learn that Saruman is a double-crosser and afterwards, they "reprogram" this Saruman's agent and send him to Bree where he teams up with Bill Ferny. The phrase I am interested in, however, is:

Originally Posted by The Unfinished Tales

[The Witch-King] put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent him on to Bree as an agent.

Super-creepy, right after some awful mind-torture, and just the fact that I am even able to connect this with what Gandalf did to Gollum does not shed very good light on Mr. Scary Wizard. Huh. *shudders*

Originally Posted by Lommy

Gandalf also stresses that the Ring had so little power over Bilbo because his first deed as a Ringbearer stemmed of pity.

Now this made me think, what was Frodo's first significant deed wearing the Ring? I think of Weathertop and stabbing the Witch-King. Is that why Frodo had such a difficult relationship with the Ring? But Frodo act courageously and in self-defense, in Elbereth's name and against the Dark Powers. It's hard to think of that as a bad thing.

Tsk-tsk. I can think of at least one earlier one: in the Barrow. His friends are lying there, seemingly dead, he wakes up, and he thinks that he could run away, imagines himself being free and grieving for them, but being alive. Then he decides not to. Actually, now that I said it, it feels much more so like a parallel to Bilbo's "first deed", isn't it? There is a similar moral dilemma present, similar feel. I don't know if that was intentional parallel - it is still quite a well-hidden episode, as we can see for example just from the fact that you forgot about it, and I think you wouldn't be alone (even though PJ and company are surely partly responsible for this)... but in any case, a parallel it is.

And, of course, it points towards Frodo's future choices, and indeed, his whole journey: it is about self-sacrifice, about sticking with his friends (or not - it is also a reversal of his future choice at Amon Hen where he does choose to abandon his friends - in order to protect them. Again).

Originally Posted by Lommy

Lastly, a small thing. Did Gollum really eat human babies?!

And animal babies. But yes, Frodo's disgust with Gollum after hearing the story is perfectly understandable then - and he voices the disgust repeatedly, I have noticed this time, almost a bit too many times one might think, but under these circumstances, quite appropriately.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Tsk-tsk. I can think of at least one earlier one: in the Barrow. His friends are lying there, seemingly dead, he wakes up, and he thinks that he could run away, imagines himself being free and grieving for them, but being alive. Then he decides not to. Actually, now that I said it, it feels much more so like a parallel to Bilbo's "first deed", isn't it? There is a similar moral dilemma present, similar feel. I don't know if that was intentional parallel - it is still quite a well-hidden episode, as we can see for example just from the fact that you forgot about it, and I think you wouldn't be alone (even though PJ and company are surely partly responsible for this)... but in any case, a parallel it is.

And, of course, it points towards Frodo's future choices, and indeed, his whole journey: it is about self-sacrifice, about sticking with his friends (or not - it is also a reversal of his future choice at Amon Hen where he does choose to abandon his friends - in order to protect them. Again).

Very interesting. I actually originally thought of an even earlier thing: Frodo putting on the Ring to test Tom Bombadil. Not very noble or wise - but surely no a significant deed either?

But I think you might be onto something here. I'm looking forward to that chapter now.

[Boromir88]

There is a lot of things I'm finding I want to comment on in this chapter. Where oh where should I begin?

The previous posts in this thread discussed a lot about Frodo's motivations, and will, for accepting the Ring. Some have even said he's selfish, judgmental and cowardly. I sympathize the most with Frodo's choices in this chapter, if anything it's Gandalf who comes off as a manipulator and not flawless and not the "goody two shoes mentor," as Lommy puts it.

Not only because of his threats to get info out of Gollum, but also he's got a bit of a temper. The previous chapter we are hinted that the wizard isn't as kindly and gentle as he seems:

That was Gandalf's mark, of course and the old man was Gandalf the Wizard, whose fame in the Shire was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights. His real business was far more difficult and dangerous, but the Shire-folk knew nothing about it.

Now in The Shadow of the Past, he basically scares Frodo into leaving The Shire and taking the Ring. When I read it this time, Gandalf is rather rude to Frodo, he doesn't sound understanding of Frodo's frustration and peril that has been forced upon him.

'It is not,' said Frodo. 'Though I am not sure that I understand you. But how have you learned all this about the Ring, and about Gollum? Do you really know it all, or are you just guessing still?'

Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. 'I knew much and I have learned much,' he answered. 'But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you. The history of Elendil and Isildur and the One Ring is known to all the Wise. Your ring is shown to be that One Ring by the fire-writing alone, apart from any other evidence.'

'And when did you discover that?' asked Frodo, interrupting.
'Just now in this room, of course,' answered the wizard sharply.

The italics are Tolkien's influence and I really think Gandalf comes off in a bad tone, it's belittling and rude. Reading between the lines it comes off as Gandalf saying "I don't have to explain myself to you (Frodo)" and "I know more than what I'm telling you, but I'm going to tell you only what I think is necessary for you to know." Then he gets cross with Frodo for being scared of taking the only choice that Gandalf pushes Frodo into making. Manipulative much?

Also, this isn't the only time Gandalf casually mentions a threat of fire to get information out of someone:

'"Butterbur they call him," thought I. "If this delay was his fault, I will melt all the butter in him. I will roast the old fool over a slow fire." He expected no less, and when he saw my face he fell down flat and began to melt on the spot.'

'What did you do to him?' cried Frodo in alarm. 'He was really very kind to us and did all that he could.'

Gandalf laughed. 'Don't be afraid!' he said. 'I did not bite, and I only barked very little. So overjoyed was I by the news that I got out of him, when he stopped quaking, that I embraced the old fellow...'~The Council of Elrond

Whether Gandalf would ever torture someone to get information he wants, is not the point. It's the fact he has apparently no problems making people think he will roast them if they don't. After Bilbo's 2nd disappearance from the Shire, Gandalf's reputation plummets. He's no longer a kind old wizard who serves as a main party entertainment. He's a "nuisance and a disturber of the peace."

"Some people are actually accusing me of spiriting Bilbo away, or worse. If you want to know, there is supposed to be a plot between you and me to get hold of his wealth."~A Long-expected Party

But in the meantime, the general opinion in the neighbourhood was that Bilbo, who had always been rather cracked, had at last gone quite mad, and had run off into the Blue. There he had undoubtedly fallen into a pool or a river and come to a tragic, but hardly an untimely, end. The blame was mostly laid on Gandalf.~The Shadow of the Past

I think it's great character building that even though the town gossip is absurd and not what actually happened, there is a grain of truth to every rumor. It's important we see this darker, manipulative Gandalf. Ironically what happens at the end of this chapter is basically what Gandalf was accused of doing at the end of the previous chapter. It goes to show why Gandalf would be a most terrible and frightening Ring-bearer. He has no second-guessing of letting people think he will roast them for information. He all but tells Frodo he has the power to break his mind:

Gandalf laughed grimly. 'You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you - except by force, which would break your mind...'

It's Gandalf's restraint and rejection of using that power which is his redemption. Although, it's certainly frightening that he uses the threat of his power to intimidate others to get the results and answers he wants. Yep, I definitely sympathize with Frodo in this chapter.

[Boromir88]

Other points I took away from the chapter this time around...

I always noted Frodo's disgust and disbelief when Gandalf tells him that Gollum was not so different from hobbits. Frodo simply can't believe there is any connection to someone so vile and done as many awful deeds as Gollum has done. I know how much this changes when Frodo encounters and spared Gollum's life. They are both so closely tied by the Ring, but I really took notice for the first time that there is a connection between the two that doesn't involve the Ring. In the same way that Bilbo and Gollum were familiar with the same riddles, in this chapter we see Frodo shares Gollum's inquisitive mind to discover new paths:

Frodo went tramping over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, and to the amazement of sensible folk he was sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. Merry and Pippin suspected that he visited the Elves at times; as Bilbo had done.

So it went on, until his forties were running out, and his fiftieth birthday was drawing near: fifty was a number that he felt was somehow significant (or ominous); it was at any rate at that age that adventure had suddenly befallen Bilbo. Frodo began to feel restless, and the old paths seemed too well-trodden. He looked at maps, and wondered what lay beyond their edges: maps made in the Shire showed mostly white spaces beyond its borders. He took to wandering further afield and more often by himself; and Merry and his other friends watched him anxiously. Often he was seen walking and talking with strange wayfarers that began at this time to appear in the Shire.

Frodo's restlessness is described twice as "wandering." He gets no more enjoyment walking the "old paths that seemed to well-trodden," he wanders further from home and mostly on his own. I only recently connected Frodo's "wandering" to a trait similar to Gollum's. Yes, Gollum stayed hidden in his mountain cave, but he had the same wandering spirit to discover secrets and pathways:

'All the "great secrets" under the mountains had turned out to be just empty night: there was nothing more to find out, nothing worth doing, only nasty furtive eating and resentful remembering. He was altogether wretched. He hated the dark, and he hated light more: he hated everything, and the Ring most of all.'

Gollum leaves the mountains and continues on wandering, actually tracing Bilbo's paths and then answers the "summons" to Mordor where the are new paths and secrets he discovers in his aimless wandering. Frodo doesn't want to see it yet, but there is more connecting the two than the Ring. Or this wandering that leads to no purpose could be an effect of the Ring as well?

Ted Sandyman is one of the more humorous characters to me. Without a doubt he's obnoxious and annoying, but every time I read Ted's dialogue, I just can't stop picturing the ultimate internet troll. "I didn't see it, so it can't be true! You said Hal saw it? Well he's always saying he saw something."

"Walking trees! No way, what he saw was just an elm tree."
But there are no elm trees in this area
"Then he couldn't have seen an elm tree!"

I just want to yell at Sam to stop feeding the troll.