The Scourge of The Dark Side...Tolkien and Modernism

[tumhalad2]

haha no I understand...and yes those forumers should be told! I see what you're saying and I suppose there is little I can say against it. Ultimately, as you say, all literature is infused with some kind of social outlook, though with Tolkien I think it is, if anything, a byproduct of his concious attempts to explore entirely unrelated themes.

Though The Lord of the Rings may be infused with "nostalgia" I believe it would be dangerous to simply assume that this was because Tolkien had a particular fetish with it for its own sake; I don't think it is this simple and I believe people like Brin have manipulated this to their own advantage. Taking Tolkien's works as a whole, I think a lot more can be said not only for his 'telling a tale' but also for the themes of 'death and the desire for deathlessness' . I know I keep going on about it but I think theres something to be said for it.

[Gwathagor]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks for the interesting and insightful points.

I have a couple things to say about the Star Wars guys who have been abusing Tolkien:

1) Modernism is retarded and doesn't work. Unfortunately, modernists are, and will probably remain, oblivious to the fact that their brilliant cosmology hasn't worked since 1914. I'm actually surprised. I thought everyone knew that modernism is a proven failure. "Reason," they say, "Will bring us progress, prosperity, and peace." Progress is terrific, but reason is limited. It CAN'T bring us everything. (Post-modernists figured this out, but they've rather taken it to the opposite extreme.) This is why Tolkien's world is more realistic that the one the modernists have desperately tried to will into being for the last couple of centuries. Despite the fantastic setting, Tolkien paints the world as it is: change/progress is good and proper, but often involves a great deal of sacrifice and sadness. Middle-earth is a threat to the "modern" world, because it doesn't lie to us. The world isn't "modern".

2) I'm also surprised that Star Wars fans are trying to espouse modernism. They must not be doing it very seriously, or they'd realize that hardcore modernists would find Star Wars pretty useless.

3) What's wrong with fascism?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

3) What's wrong with fascism?

Everything?

I saw this thread and thought "Ah, at last, a discussion on how Tolkien's work can be compared with the likes of Eliot and Joyce." But no, it's about how 'modern' he was with a small m. Still, of course the aspects of the modern world and of modern culture are a major feature in Modernist literature.

It might be helpful to know what we mean by 'modernist'. Are we merely assuming Tolkien is 'old school' because he writes of Kings, Elves and people who live a simpler lifestyle on the technological scale of development? Or are we also considering what messages his work conveys?

Because on that latter point, Tolkien is an out and out Modernist - with a capital M.

Just taking one aspect of his work, his approach towards warfare, Tolkien is in the company of the WWI poets, of Peake, of Lawrence. He presents us with ordinary people who are confronted with a far-off war; they go out of duty, because their friends go, because they believe that in some small way, they can play a part. Unlike WWI, these ordinary people are not forced to go, and this war is one which needs to be fought (unlike about 99% of wars in real life!) as there simply is no diplomatic facility to reason with Sauron! However, even though this war is about as 'just' as any war can get, Tolkien doesn't give us returning muscular heroes. No, he brings us back broken people. He kills some characters. He shows us the consequences.

That's a major feature of Modernism. Questioning authority and the idea that war is inherently our 'duty' to take part in, a duty which will glorify us - that's something which has been passed down from the ancient Greeks but never came under serious questioning until the 20th century and Modernist thinking. Tolkien himself went through all of this - how could he not have come out of that madness without questioning it? It even shook his faith to the core - with the result that the god he created in his work was a terrible god, a truly omnipotent creation.

You could discuss many, many aspects of Tolkien's work in the light of Modernism - as scholars are doing (there was recently a TS seminar on Tolkien & Modernism) already. And I think Shippey has done some work comparing Tolkien to Joyce?

I'm afraid Brin and the Star Wars geeks et al have latched onto Tolkien's faith as making him some kind of pseudo-Lewis figure when this couldn't be further from the truth. It's grossly unfair to condemn Tolkien as a has-been in the literary stakes just because of his religion when he doesn't exactly beat you over the head with it but instead in his clearly Modernist take on a lot of aspects of human existence, he raises interesting questions.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Lalwende, it sounds as if Brin and Co. don't know what true Modernism is. They appear to have cobbled together their own version of it, from the points you have made. What a world...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lal

It might be helpful to know what we mean by 'modernist'.

Exactly. And the same thing should be asked about 'humanism' as well... and about their relationship

There has been discussion about literary modernism in here but mostly I'd say that with modernism people have meant the socio-cultural ethos of the twentieth century (beginning late 19th) western liberal democracies. The first surely presupposes the latter but they are not the same thing.

Also the word humanism is quite confusing here as some people seem to just toy about with a strawman they have created - and the word itself has a history of six hundred years (from the renaissance umanista) - and the humanisms of the literati back then, the chrstian humanism, secular humanism, etc. do differ a lot.

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

Lastly I really don't know about the merits of humanism and modernism; I certainly think, nonetheless, that the world is a far more complex place than such philosophies allow for.

Here there has to be a kind of misunderstanding? Thinking of different worldviews or philosophies I couldn't imagine modernists to take the world as an uncomplex place - quite the opposite. Mythlogical worlds, religious worlds, conservative worlds (at least those of the style: "oh how everything was nice and neat back then") tend to carry the simple explanations. It's not a new idea that fex. fantasy may be so popular these days when it offers simple solutions and escape from this modern complex world in which we people have learned the modern way of thinking with no easy certainties and questions lurking all around.

I myself am quite much a secular humanist. So I don't believe in God - at least in any god some humans could name or know something about. Sure there can be even a god somewhere (whatever she/he/it is) - there is a lot things in the universe we people don't understand, like the being of the existence itself, or the concept of infinity.

But that doesn't stop me loving the works of Tolkien. Even if I can relate the prof's place in the chain of ideas within our cultural history it doesn't deny me slipping into his world as piece of masterly fiction or to admire his creativity and learning. And surely there's the little romantic in me as in most of us "modern westerners" who loves to dwell in all those medieval-smelling ideals, heroisms, virtues and vices, the plain living and culture... you name it.

But when I'm in this world of real people the humanist in me demands that I do fex. honour every human being as having a equal moral worth as a human being to begin with - with no über- or untermenschen, or higher and lower cultures according to which individual people would be judged etc... In this world there are no genetical master-races of the Dunedain even if some people have tried to advance that kind of ideas, or master-cultures like the elves - or unworthy Dunledings... These are very unmodern ideas - and unhumanist ideas.

There may be more virtuous or nicer individuals as there seems to be fouler or colder people. There may also be unhealthy trends in any one culture (like the overindividualism in the western culture or the rising fundamentalism in both islamic and western cultures) or good trends. But cultures as such are not bad or good - and people only become good or bad by what they do. But in the beginning they're all equal. Every newborn is sinless.

That's modernist humanism I'm proud to advocate.

[tumhalad2]

[QUOTE=Nogrod;548687]

... In this world there are no genetical master-races of the Dunedain even if some people have tried to advance that kind of ideas, or master-cultures like the elves - or unworthy Dunledings... These are very unmodern ideas - and unhumanist ideas.

There may be more virtuous or nicer individuals as there seems to be fouler or colder people. There may also be unhealthy trends in any one culture (like the overindividualism in the western culture or the rising fundamentalism in both islamic and western cultures) or good trends. But cultures as such are not bad or good - and people only become good or bad by what they do. But in the beginning they're all equal. Every newborn is sinless.

That's modernist humanism I'm proud to advocate.[/QUOTE

Firstly I don't believe the Dunedein were a 'genetic' master race-though they are 'talked up' in the LOTR it is also true that they themselves are capable of sin and vice. So, the Dunedain are not morally superior humans, nor particularly phyical, but, if anything, their history is more connected with the elves which makes them 'culturally superior'. As to the Elves themselves-they are difficult. Brin calls them ubermenshen-indeed in a sense they are, though perhaps in light of Tolkien's entire legendarium it would be more exact to say that their civilisation is inherently different, rather than superior, to the cultures of Men or Dwarves (something the Dwarves would certainly say!)

Reading Tolkien I don't really get the idea that the Elves are in fact 'superior'-just 'different' in some way...

[Nogrod]

Most old mythologies are keen to point out the weaknessess in the We - even if we are the sons of gods or centers of the universe... So Tolkien only follows a traditional path there by making Dunedain and elves having vices. The idea of the "chosen ones" being (needing or striving to be) perfect is later Christian addendum.

In the old world of mythologies you could be superior but still imperfect.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But when I'm in this world of real people the humanist in me demands that I do fex. honour every human being as having a equal moral worth as a human being to begin with - with no über- or untermenschen, or higher and lower cultures according to which individual people would be judged etc... In this world there are no genetical master-races of the Dunedain even if some people have tried to advance that kind of ideas, or master-cultures like the elves - or unworthy Dunledings... These are very unmodern ideas - and unhumanist ideas.

I'm not sure whether you attribute these ideas to Tolkien or not, but if you do, I'd have to disagree. On first glance I can see how Tolkien's work can be interpreted as racist and in fact, I believe his work is celebrated by some neo-nazi groups for this reason (although others groups don't seem to appreciate his apparent admiration of the jews to which he once likened to the dwarves on an altogether off-topic discourse). You do notice that nobility seem to be connected with being tall and blonde while the invading Easterling scum seem to be 'swarty and squat'. But then again there are far to many exceptions to make a good case for racism.
Lots of tall characters with fair skin and noble hertiage do terrible things in his books (ex. the numerorians) and many 'swarty and squat' characters do good things (ex. the druadain (sp?) or that fat guy who fought for Gondor at the battle of Pellenor). And besides, doesn't the whole basic idea to make up a mythology for England stipulate a white man's perspective? And I don't see anything wrong with that. As for the Elves, they have no relation whatsoever with Nietzche's 'übermench' or later fascist applications to the word and any attempt to connect them with a racist agenda is way off the mark IMO. I think tumhalad2 has a good point when he see them and their 'immortality' as an important contrast to the fate of mortal men and their fear of death.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

There may be more virtuous or nicer individuals as there seems to be fouler or colder people. There may also be unhealthy trends in any one culture (like the overindividualism in the western culture or the rising fundamentalism in both islamic and western cultures) or good trends. But cultures as such are not bad or good - and people only become good or bad by what they do. But in the beginning they're all equal. Every newborn is sinless.

That's modernist humanism I'm proud to advocate.

This is pretty much what Tolkien advocated too, unless I'm mistaken. But I don't see why some cultures or even peoples as a whole can't be considered better than others. To say so is no doubt just an opinion (as with all social or theological subjects) but I still reserve the right to have one, even if it isn't considered politically correct. Individuals should, of course, be treated as unique without any stigmas attached, but a culture can't ever change unless we're allowed to critisize it.

*Edit: I see I crossposted with tumhalad2 and this is a question to you:
You seem like an intelligent and reasonable guy, well able to form your own opinion. Yet, in the op you appear concerned that the criticism of this Brin fella might put you off Tolkien. But seriuosly... this Brin, who I've never heard of btw, sounds like a pretentious but not very bright tosser to be honest. Why would you listen to him?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by tumhalad2

haha no I understand...and yes those forumers should be told! I see what you're saying and I suppose there is little I can say against it. Ultimately, as you say, all literature is infused with some kind of social outlook, though with Tolkien I think it is, if anything, a byproduct of his concious attempts to explore entirely unrelated themes.

Though The Lord of the Rings may be infused with "nostalgia" I believe it would be dangerous to simply assume that this was because Tolkien had a particular fetish with it for its own sake; I don't think it is this simple and I believe people like Brin have manipulated this to their own advantage. Taking Tolkien's works as a whole, I think a lot more can be said not only for his 'telling a tale' but also for the themes of 'death and the desire for deathlessness' . I know I keep going on about it but I think theres something to be said for it.

Well, nostalgia is to me a negative concept as a nostalgic person concerns himself with something already lost and prefers to remember and cherish an often idealised past rather than trying to do something about the present situation.
Then again, most people (myself included) have a tendency towards bittersweet nostalgia and I certainly don't hold it against Tolkien if he harboured a wistful longing for a lost idealised English conuntyside. I didn't use to think that death and deathlessness was a major theme in LotR but now thinking about it I certainly see your point. These themes become even more important in his post LotR writings on ME, like what can be found in HoME X: Morgoth's Ring. Much of this book to me reads like the contemplations of an aging christian with a curious mind, trying to come to terms with his own mortality and religious beliefs.