Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Third

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Could it be that Gloin, along with the rest the thirteen dwarves, saw first hand of what the corruption of gold had done to thier leader Thorin? This may have had some affect on Gloin, and so he might have tought Gimli not to love gold as other dwarves had.

Even if that matches Glóin's personality, which I'm not sure is borne out, that still wouldn't fly. Although young, Gimli was a fully grown Dwarf by the time of the Quest for Erebor--too young to be one of Thorin's companions, but much too old to be considered a child anymore, and thus not very malleable in all probability.

[Groin Redbeard]

That's a good point Formendacil.

'But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Gloin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion.'~Farewell to Lorien

It sounds like Galadriel was blessing Gimli, rather than stating a fact.

[Alfirin]

I hate to spread the argument even farther, but as yet not metion has been made in this trheread of dwarf morality of the Petty Dwarves. we know that they became as they were due to being cast out of Dwardom for some horrible crime (indiacating that there are obviosly some things a dwarf can do that even other dwarves will condemn as terrible) Whatever this evil act is also appears to effect them physically, sothing that even the corruption of Sauron's rings seems unable to do (and when one cosiders that the elves(who were presuably familar with regualr dwarves by this point) orginally though that the petty dwarves were some kind of wild beast this cahge must have been severe, as severe as the one that turned Smeagol into Gollum. This lead to two big questions 1. What could the Petty dwarves have done so horrible that it could blight them like that and 2. Had there still been any petty dwarves at the time could their decendents have ever redeemed themselves in the eyes of dwarf society.(i.e in the re-unifation of dwarves spoken of would the petty have been allowed?)

[Durelin]

I just had a quick thought specifically when I read Saucepan Man's post, #16.

Originally Posted by Saucepan Man

...the majority will "fall into line" either out of fear or because they have lack understanding that their ruler is acting "wrongly". Whether the submission through fear aspect would apply to Dwarves is a moot point, given their famed resistance to enslavement. Then again, Kuru paints a picture of a culture which adheres strongly to the demands of its heirarchical structure.

Because of the adherence to hierarchical structure, the importance of family, and the importance of the patriarch (made me think of a sort of less spiritual Confucian-filial piety sort of deal), I see it as quite possible that Dwarves would follow their leader without fear or without even being somehow convinced at all times that what their leader is doing is 'right', but purely out of respect for the patriarch, the hierarchical structure, and out of a loyalty to their House. Betraying the patriarch is betraying the House.

So I basically agree with what Saucepan Man says at the end of his post:

It is possible, for example, that those Dwarves who fought on Sauron's side in the Last Alliance did so believing that their cause was the "right" one, or because they were in thrall to their corrupted leaders, but that their loyalty to their own kind surmounted even this when it came to incidents such as Thror's death at the hands of Azog.

To begin with Dwarves never seem overly concerned with other people's problems. They always have their own reasons (as most people do...) for allying themselves with Men and Elves: prosperity, their own protection, the gaining of wealth, or just to kill a shared enemy. But in The Hobbit, Thorin and co. are fully prepared to fight both Men and Elves for their own reasons. Still not all of them seem to feel it's such a good idea, holding out in the mountain and refusing all compromise. But none will dare disagree with Thorin. So really I agree it's possible that Dwarves would even join with Sauron if they thought it was in their best interest, and I think that if the leader of a House or group thought it was in his and/or his House's best interest to join with Sauron, most of the House would follow with him, regardless of what they felt.

Whether or not that is evil is questionable I think. And I definitely don't think they would have to be "under the sway" of anyone -- I think loyalty and respect regardless would be enough.

[Aganzir]

One thing we need to remember about history-writing in Middle-earth is that it's mostly from the Elves' point of view and may therefore be biased in some cases. Their definition of evil may not always correspond with that of the Dwarves'. I think it's fair to use the Petty Dwarves as an example here - they did something awful enough to be cast out, but they were never that many. I interpret this as meaning that the Dwarves were okay with forgiving most crimes.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

But I wonder about this. Why were there no grudges remembered from the time of the Last Alliance during the War of the Dwarves and Orcs? This was the question that basically launched my questioning in this area.

I believe some Dwarves who fought for Sauron could also have seen themselves as primarily siding against the Elves. They might have put their little quarrels with the Orcs aside for that because the Thingol incident was much more personal.

I've always thought the passage about the Dwarves fighting each other is more about occasional skirmishes than anything serious and long-running. After all, they generally stick together. There are two quotes which I believe haven't been brought up yet:

Originally Posted by Durin's Folk, Appendix A

Durin's Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the other Houses of other Fathers; for this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath.

Originally Posted by The Making of Appendix A, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

For an injury to a father a Dwarf may spend a life-time in achieving revenge. Since the 'kings' or heads of lines are regarded as 'parents' of the whole group, it will be understood how it was that the whole of Durin's Race gathered and marshalled itself to avenge Thrór.

As for the latter, Durin's Race can be read as either the House of Durin or all Dwarves, right? Anyway, Thrór's murder was big enough an offense against the entire race to set aside grudges between Houses, but when it was done, the Dwarves of the other Houses were quick to leave for their homes after the Battle of Azanulbizar.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, the Rings were designed to lead everybody to an evil end. In the case of Men, the Rings performed admirably and as Sauron intended. In the case of the Dwarves, they did not work as Sauron intended. In the case of the Elves they didn’t really work at all. I think from this evidence, one might conclude that Sauron had more of an insight into Men than anybody else.

They didn't work with the Elves because Sauron didn't forge them, so we can probably leave them out here.
I don't think Aulë explained Sauron anything about the Dwarves in Valinor, and besides it's questionable whether Sauron was still hanging out there by the time Aulë created the Dwarves or if he had already moved his things to Utumno. But he must have been familiar with them instinctively - being one of Aulë's Maiar, he had tuned his music to his and must have been aware of his way of thinking and creating; while none of the Ainur fully understood the theme with the Children of Ilúvatar.
I am therefore quite sure it was Dwarves' natural resistance to manipulation that thwarted Sauron rather than any particular knowledge, or lack of it, on his part, and Men succumbed so completely just because they are weak.

While we don’t know, it seems reasonable to surmise that this information would have been relayed eastwards, especially given the amount of time that passed.

How about them messenger ravens, or was that a privilege reserved exclusively to the House of Durin?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I've always wondered, what makes Gimli different from the rest of his greedy dwarf brethren? Or are there more dwarves like Gimli where gold and riches hold no influence over them?

I doubt he would've joined the Fellowship if he had been the greedier sort of a Dwarf. He would've gone home after the Council and, like, digged for gold.

Anyway, think of Fíli and Kíli who started playing harps while most of the other Dwarves caressed and fingered the treasure after getting into the Mountain. Then think of Finrod Felagund who wasn't a haughty and arrogant fellow like most other Noldor. It's never that simple.

[Kuruharan]

I believe some Dwarves who fought for Sauron could also have seen themselves as primarily siding against the Elves. They might have put their little quarrels with the Orcs aside for that because the Thingol incident was much more personal.

While to some extent that is plausible, I don't know that I am in complete agreement with it because the eastern dwarves probably had very few to almost no dealings with elves. They certainly had no dealings with the more advanced elves. I am not sure they would have had enough dealings with elves to make having a grudge against them a primary motivating force.

They didn't work with the Elves because Sauron didn't forge them, so we can probably leave them out here.

That is a good point.

How about them messenger ravens, or was that a privilege reserved exclusively to the House of Durin?

Yes, those too. I still believe there would have been some kind of continuing continental commerce between the Houses.

[skip spence]

I still believe there would have been some kind of continuing continental commerce between the Houses.

Sure. More so, I don't see it unlikely that there would be commerce between Dwarves and some clans of Orcs too. Apart from other hints of this already mentioned I believe, the episode that led to the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs is quite telling. When Thrór was killed the name AZOG was written on his face in Dwarf-runes. That some Orcs would have knowledge of Dwarf-runes to me suggests that the contacts between the two Peoples weren't exclusively hostile. And even more telling is the bag of spare change that the Orcs threw at Thrór's companion: his beggar's fee, "a few coins of little worth". That insult would be quite lost if not both parties were familiar with the currency.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

While to some extent that is plausible, I don't know that I am in complete agreement with it because the eastern dwarves probably had very few to almost no dealings with elves. They certainly had no dealings with the more advanced elves. I am not sure they would have had enough dealings with elves to make having a grudge against them a primary motivating force.

We know (as quoted in this thread) that they did have contact with the Avari though.

I also wanted to mention "countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem." (LR p.803)

I've always like the idea of an Easterling-Dwarf cultural connection. There's even "the theory (a probable one) that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men - including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adûnaic was derived - had been influenced by Khuzdul" (The Peoples of Middle-earth p.317), which is an interesting notion.

It seems that there is an Easterling-Dwarf connection. And we know that there is a substantial Easterling-Orc connection. Is might be possible, then, for there to have been in Rhûn a variety of races in contact with one another, perhaps including the Avari as well. Not to say that this was likely a pleasant or altogether peaceful situation but at least one which may have been somewhat functional.

Given their great resistance to Evil, and the willingness on the part of all seven houses to contribute to the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, I'm not totally convinced by the notion that the Eastern Dwarves turned to Evil entirely, but may certainly have been under the Shadow to a greater extent than their Western kin (explaining how at least some of them apparently allied and traded with Orcs, came to serve Sauron etc). As I discussed elsewhere, to my mind the Dwarves were not of the same spiritual calibre as the Eruhíni which might explain how they neither attained the same levels of heroism nor, perhaps, the same Fallen depths.

I could discuss Dwarf-lore all day...