Trollhammaren!

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Using an article on the Barrow-Downs by the Barrow-Wight himself, I learn that the Olog-hai were Sauron's doing. They were bred by him and taught a rudimentary language. But to say that this is as smart as Trolls get is to miss the point of this thread. Trolls could have been more smart, or more anything, had JRRT wanted.

Well, Tolkien gave trolls the ability to speak and learn, that's pretty smart!

Speaking of the 70 trolls killed by Hurin, could it be that Morgoth's trolls were smaller and similar to the ones in the fairy tails? I always thought of them that way. How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Speaking of the 70 trolls killed by Hurin, could it be that Morgoth's trolls were smaller and similar to the ones in the fairy tails? I always thought of them that way. How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

Here's the quote from CoH:

"It is sung that the black axe smoked in the black blood of the troll guards... Seventy times he uttered that cry..."

Notice the "it is sung" and consider the fictional perspective. All the historywriters who recorded The Battle Of Unnumbered Tears knew was that the men led by Hurin were surrounded and finally slaughtered, quite possibly down to the very last man. But Hurin was bound, taken to Angband and tormented. When Morgoth released him much later he wouldn't have made up a boast story about how many trolls he slew the worst day in his life.

Still he was a hero for defying Morgoth and I think the (make-belive) historywriters probably used their creative freedom and filled out the blanks to make Hurin's last stand seem more valiant and glorious than it already was. It is more likely that when Gothmog and his troll guard arrived Hurin was quite overwhelmed and rather easily subdued and humiliated.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

Well, he was a very good warrior...

but I agree. No normal man could kill 70 trolls.*


*edit: but Hurin was no normal man

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That part also says that Orc arms grappled him after they had been cut off, or something similar. Implication is that Trolls and Orcs were fighting him at the time. He uttered the cry 70 times, but that could mean he killed 20 Trolls and 50 Orcs.

[Lalwendë]

Hail to the Trollhammeren

I like the way that trolls are a bit mysterious and there are not definite accounts of all their origins nor even a definitive account of what a troll looks like or can do. They're just big and scary. Thinking back to when I was a child, the idea of Trolls was quite frightening enough - to have them described in all their gory detail might have spoiled them. When my Nan told me that the single slab bridge with a big hole in the middle, that crossed the brook at the bottom of the back field had Trolls living under it, and that one of them had grabbed her leg one day, she didn't have to say any more about what the monsters looked like...

As with a lot of his horrors, I think Tolkien intended it that way. I'm even beginning to think he left the case of the Balrog wings unproven because he knew it was both more scary that way and because he knew it would give everyone something to argue about

[mormegil]

Agreed. Tolkien's trolls seem more like ogres to me than trolls.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

That part also says that Orc arms grappled him after they had been cut off, or something similar. Implication is that Trolls and Orcs were fighting him at the time. He uttered the cry 70 times, but that could mean he killed 20 Trolls and 50 Orcs.

Yes I'm not convinced the seventy refers all to Trolls myself, albeit Húrin was certainly mighty. In The Grey Annals it was said that:

'Then he cast aside his shield and wielded his axe two-handed; and it is sung that in that last stand he himself slew an hundred of the Orcs. But they took him alive at last...'

Similarly one hundred Orcs in Tolkien's earlier Quenta Silmarillion (HME V).

Christopher Tolkien explains that the text of chapter twenty in the published Silmarillion was primarily derived from the story in The Grey Annals, but elements were introduced from the old chapter sixteen in Quenta Silmarillion, and also from a third text, that: 'was intended as a component in the long prose Tale of the Children of Húrin (the Narn)'. It seems that in the new book Children of Húrin Christopher Tolkien took the passage concerning the great battle from the Narn version, whereas in the constructed Silmarillion he followed the Annals with some features taken from the Narn version.

A hundred orcs is an amazing feat (if indeed the songs merely meant to imply 'some great number', it was still notably great). Interesting that the number decreases a bit to seventy, though along with less explicit wording too, in my opinion, as to just what number Trolls were slain.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Hurin defied Morgoth.

Hurin. defied. Morgoth.

HURIN, ALONE, DEFIED THE LORD OF DARKNESS.

Case closed.

(so yes, he killed 70 trolls)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by VI

Hurin defied Morgoth.

Hurin. defied. Morgoth.

HURIN, ALONE, DEFIED THE LORD OF DARKNESS.

Case closed.

(so yes, he killed 70 trolls)

Yes, its true. And he may have actually killed all those trolls. After all, Morgoth punished Hurin very severely (maybe more than anyone else). There must have been a reason (And I'm sure there were others who killed 70+ orcs in their lifetime).

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Well, Tolkien gave trolls the ability to speak and learn, that's pretty smart!

Speaking of the 70 trolls killed by Hurin, could it be that Morgoth's trolls were smaller and similar to the ones in the fairy tails? I always thought of them that way. How could Huirn have killed 70 eighteen foot trolls?

How? Because he was THAT good. What's the point of mythic heroes if we don't let them do mythic hero things?

Regarding trolls and intelligence: there's a very wide variety of trolls in Middle-earth, and probably a corresponding variety of intelligence, aggression, etc. However, I DON'T think that the Olog-hai should be in any way taken as a typical sample, as they were a specially developed breed and only able to speak because Sauron souped 'em up. The Olog-hai are not some kind of success story about what Trolls can achieve if they try really hard or about Trolls' latent potential and intelligence.

Maybe I'll post again later after I've thought about this some more.

[Galin]

I'm not convinced the Troll-guard of Gothmog even included 70 Trolls.

I think Tolkien started with orcs (100), but reduced the number to seventy 'cause now there were 'some' Trolls in the mix -- and although the number was reduced, the feat was now arguably just as amazing, or even more so, given that Trolls were involved.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Yes, its true. And he may have actually killed all those trolls. After all, Morgoth punished Hurin very severely (maybe more than anyone else). There must have been a reason (And I'm sure there were others who killed 70+ orcs in their lifetime).

Well, the punishment was due to Hurin's refusal to reveal Gondolin's location to Morgoth, coupled with the overall defiance thing that no-one else had done face to face in Middle Earth (Feanor did it in Aman).

But the magnitude of the feat (Hurin must have been tortured as well as just interrogated in Angband) makes him more than capable of such a "small" achievement as battle prowess.