What connection between Goldberry and Ulmo?

[Groin Redbeard]

Goldberry reminds me of the nymphs, the stewards of nature, in Greek mythology. As far as I know nymphs loved music and dancing; that would explain her singing and love for Tom Bombadil. So I think that she would have more of a connection with Yavvana than with Ulmo. What do you think?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Goldberry reminds me of the nymphs, the stewards of nature, in Greek mythology. As far as I know nymphs loved music and dancing; that would explain her singing and love for Tom Bombadil. So I think that she would have more of a connection with Yavvana than with Ulmo. What do you think?

Good point, however I think nymph-like creatures don't need to have anything to do with Yavanna more than with Ulmo (and if anything, I would consider them being connected with Vána - just look at her description in Valaquenta: she would be the one to have anything to do with nymphs and such). However, first: let us not forget that whatever Goldberry may resemble, she is first of all the River-daugher, and only then something resembling a nymph or whatever. Second, there are water-nymphs as well, you know, and if there's anything that Goldberry resembles, then it's them. And I would like to point out one thing, not sure where else this appears, but in Slavic mythology there are water-nymphs (rusalka) who are very similar to Goldberry, and in Czech translation at least, the words "River-woman" are translated as "říční žínka", which is another word just for this water-nymph. So I naturally pre-determinedly imagined Goldberry always like something of that kind. However, this does not explain her nature, and where she came from, and what has she to do with Ulmo (if anything), any further.

[Eönwë]

Ooh! another interesting topic about Goldberry. She is almost as much of an enigma as Tom. I always imagined her more earthy (maybe earthly) than a Maia, as she looks more...(I don't have the quote but I think it was something about her being mroe human than the elves, and if so, that probably rules out the possibility of Maia, since they are more celestial and high, and such).

She could be part of the music, which might be why she sings a lot. She sort of uses the music (rather than creating it, like Ainur), and because water is the one place where the Music still lives, this might be easier for her, or maybe it is what made her.

Also, I have a question. Do you think that Goldberry could be Ulmo's last contact with ME? She definitely is connected with water, which Ulmo just happens to control. Is it just coinciedence? Maybe she knows much more than she says.


PS. I can tell you like this subject Legate, especially the bits about Ulmo, which I'm sure doesn't have anything to do with your title (The Voice that Gainsayeth?)... Hmm?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Also, I have a question. Do you think that Goldberry could be Ulmo's last contact with ME? She definitely is connected with water, which Ulmo just happens to control. Is it just coinciedence? Maybe she knows much more than she says.

This is actually very interesting idea. Ulmo's power was leaving the streams and rivers of Middle-Earth even during the First Age, and then of course, when the Valar laid down their power over Arda after the Fall of Númenor, he would leave M-E to itself like they did. However, I wonder whether Ulmo would not, as it has been his habit, still remain a little more active than the other Valar (more than just sending in the Istari, which was the only thing we know the Valar did by the time of Third Age) - one of these manifestations of his interest in the affairs of Third Age Middle-Earth being Goldberry. Still, there would be the question what is her presence supposed to mean, or what is the purpose of her being there (maybe just a spirit of water as a side effect of the "informator" status of the waters? I certainly don't think Goldberry would be a true "informator" herself - or not in the plain sense, at least).

PS. I can tell you like this subject Legate, especially the bits about Ulmo, which I'm sure doesn't have anything to do with your title (The Voice that Gainsayeth?)... Hmm?

Ulmo is the Vala I always liked the most, and among other things, the choice of my personal title was influenced by this. So you can make the picture out of it

[Bêthberry]

Excellent topic, as always, Esty!

In discussing Goldberry, we have to consider both the Bombadil verse and the LotR. The two present different views of her and of her spouse. It is almost as if the original verses represent an older folkloric tradition that has been overlaid by a later version.

I have in the past associated Goldberry (through my rpg character) with Uinen and Osse. The story of Ulmo's vassal who was tempted by Melkor and then returned to faithful following by the intervention of his wife Uinen has seemed to me to be more in keeping with the original tales of Tom's and Goldberry's nature. Osse has the power to make sea storms while Uinen calms them. I'm sure seastorms still existed in the Third Age, so I'm not sure if this particular power was still ascribed to the husband and wife of the waters even as Ulmo's power was said to be receeding.

As to the link through music, well, I wonder if we need to clarify what precisely was the original music of Arda. Was it a music of sound, as we normally associate the word, or was it rather a music of proportion, order, and measure? Music and the history of music is not really my balliwick, but I think that originally the word implied order and proportion without sound--the mathematical relationships of the universe. Yet Goldberry's "washing day" and the implied control over weather might imply some relationship less controlled and even, possibly, aligned with chaos? The female element in early folklore often pertains to elements outside human order.

Water is also a culturally derived signifier of cleansing--Goldberry's "washing day", to say nothing of the generations of women who wash their clothes in the waters of a river's edge, throughout human cultures--so that works against the chaotic element, unless, for example, the chaos of the drowning of Numenor is regarded as of just proportion and order.

just some random thoughts from Bethberry

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As to the link through music, well, I wonder if we need to clarify what precisely was the original music of Arda. Was it a music of sound, as we normally associate the word, or was it rather a music of proportion, order, and measure? Music and the history of music is not really my balliwick, but I think that originally the word implied order and proportion without sound--the mathematical relationships of the universe.

I am actually not that much acquainted with this matter as well, but what you said reminded me - any resemblance with the "music of the spheres" and the Pythagorean view of the universe? There may be some parallel, or connection, even unconscious. I would have to think of it.

Yet Goldberry's "washing day" and the implied control over weather might imply some relationship less controlled and even, possibly, aligned with chaos? The female element in early folklore often pertains to elements outside human order.

Water is also a culturally derived signifier of cleansing--Goldberry's "washing day", to say nothing of the generations of women who wash their clothes in the waters of a river's edge, throughout human cultures--so that works against the chaotic element, unless, for example, the chaos of the drowning of Numenor is regarded as of just proportion and order.

Well, why have you thought of chaos in the first place? When you mentioned it, the first thing I also thought about was "washing" in some deeper meaning (the more if Goldberry is "higher" spirit and there is something more behind her "simple" look; the more if she were associated with Ulmo) - indeed, cleansing looks pretty good idea to me, especially at this time, when we know - confirming with the UT and such - that all the Old Forest and Barrow-Downs were awakened by the Riders, and all evil things were stirring; the day before Old Man Willow trapped the Hobbits. What if Goldberry's "washing day" is, apart from the obvious connotations, indeed some mending of this, putting at least the Forest to rest? I see this as a pretty good idea.

[Morthoron]

From my standpoint, Goldberry (and her fashion-addled hubby, Tom) are enigmatic because they do not fit in a cosmogonical sense in Middle-earth -- they are in fact from outside of that universe. They do not precisely fit categorically into any designation in Middle-earth (they have attributes of Maiar, but have puzzling disparities as well); this is, I believe, Tolkien's personal joke on all of us.

When Bombadil (and by extension, Goldberry) claims he is 'the first', that is Tolkien winking at us, because Tom's tale did indeed come before the writing of LotR from both a conceptual and published standpoint. Goldberry and Tom, by Tolkien's own accounts, were important in their own right as characters and warranted their inclusion in the LotR. In fact, there is a letter Tolkien wrote to his publisher asking if Tom might be included in the story, although he does not necessarily fit tidily. Tom (and Goldberry) were written in for no other reason than Tolkien liked them and thought they were important in a personal sense beyond the telling of LotR.

And thus, like balrogs wings, the intellectual battle over Tom (and Goldberry) rages on unabated.

P.S. The Maiaric reference to Tom and Goldberry are certainly strong, particularly the maintenance of power in a defined area (much like Melian's girdle), their affinity and reverence of woods and water (like Maiaric disciples of Yavanna and Ulmo), and their power over the unseen (spiritually -- as in the Barrows) and nature (physically -- as in Tom's taming of Old Man Willow and Goldberry's washing day).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good, Morthoron, good, but allow me please one remark - what you wrote applies a lot to Tom, but not to Goldberry. Despite the fact they are put together as a couple, Goldberry does not seem otherworldly (quite the opposite - she is descended from "river", an existing creation!), says nothing in the sense that "she is" or that she'd be "oldest", and I think (though I am just guessing, I am not that acquainted with the Letters) Tolkien did not mention her as a problem in the Letters. All you said applies only to Tom. But ultimately, that says nothing about Goldberry!