Gandalf is a fraud?!

[Lalaith]

I just want to know more about this Thirandiril. He sounds hot.

[Eönwë]

The thing is, I don't think Gandalf really likes to use his magic. He's not really supposed to use it that much, anyway. And he's definitely not allowed to use it in a way which makes people afraid of him, and/or forces them into submission (like Saruman did).

I can picture the whole Thranduil (or as you call him "Thirandiril") thing, but I don't really think so.

[alatar]

What I like about LotR is that 'magic' is understated. As the Elves would say, it's not really magic as in the Potter sense, but just a subtler understanding of the world.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

What I like about LotR is that 'magic' is understated. As the Elves would say, it's not really magic as in the Potter sense, but just a subtler understanding of the world.

Exactly. Unlike D&D (wherein just any Tom, Dick and Harry Potter can sling spells), magic-use in Middle-earth is an inherent power, more akin to an innate physical ability (like the heightened acuities of the Elves). What the original poster (or rather, the poster the OP quoted) fails to understand is that using power against power was not part of Gandalf's mission; in fact, he and the other Istari ('wizard' being a handy Westron term that in no way really defines their character) were required to forego the elements of their true manifestation (which would be wholly spirit form), and became incarnate, that is, accept the bodily frailties of man. Their Maiaric powers were hooded and in some cases reduced.

The rest of the quoted poster's melange of misreadings betrays a lack of knowledge on the subject, and does not account for Gandalf's mention in numerous instances outside the Lord of the Rings (the Silmarillion, HoMe, Tolkien's letters, etc.) where his Maiaric presence is voluminously noted.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I just want to know more about this Thirandiril. He sounds hot.

What about his criminal tendencies....? Of course he is king.. he is the law..

Guess I will have to settle for Ciridan if I want a bad boy elf for myself then

This chap might have a future with the Grauniad though...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Guess I will have to settle for Ciridan if I want a bad boy elf for myself then

Isn't Cirdan a bit old, I mean, 15000 at the end of the third age. Who knows his age now? (7th age)

[Groin Redbeard]

This guy’s theory about how Gandalf obtained Narya is absurd! Cirdan gave it to him out of his own free will. I'm not sure if this guy is implying that Cirdan was leaving when he gave Gandalf the ring because he clearly wasn’t, he said that he would remain in Middle Earth as long as Gandalf stayed.

As for why Gandalf never used the ring it is quite simple: hide the rings of power from Sauron. All of the ring bearers did this, even the dwarves.

Also, this guy needs to learn how to spell Cirdan and Thranduil.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

he would remain in Middle Earth as long as Gandalf stayed.

In fact, didn't he only leave Middle-earth in the year 62 (I think) of the Fourth Age with Sam?

[Groin Redbeard]

[/B]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

In fact, didn't he only leave Middle-earth in the year 62 (I think) of the Fourth Age with Sam?

Yes, I remember that! He left of the last ship built in Mithlond. Good one, Eönwë!

Though I'm sure that Lord_Kimboat would argue that Gandalf cleverly gave Cirdan the slip and escaped to Valinor and Cirdan set out in pursuit with the mighty Samwise. All of his arguments seem to be like that.

In all the commotion I clean forgot to welcome the newcomer. Welcome to the Barrow Downs, Lord Tataraus!

[Lord Tataraus]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

This guy’s theory about how Gandalf obtained Narya is absurd! Cirdan gave it to him out of his own free will. I'm not sure if this guy is implying that Cirdan was leaving when he gave Gandalf the ring because he clearly wasn’t, he said that he would remain in Middle Earth as long as Gandalf stayed.

As for why Gandalf never used the ring it is quite simple: hide the rings of power from Sauron. All of the ring bearers did this, even the dwarves.

Also, this guy needs to learn how to spell Cirdan and Thraundil.

I have a feeling he did not read the appendices or any books beyond The Hobbit and the LotR Trilogy. I knew his theory was flawed, I justed wanted see it debunked. I find it quite humorous actually to think of Gandalf that way because it is so unexpected.

As a side note, please don't use the term "Maiaric" it should probably be "Maiara" possibly "Maiarin" (adjectives are commonly ended with an 'a') adding "ic" is just trying to make a Quenya word with English rules, it makes me cringe.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus

As a side note, please don't use the term "Maiaric" it should probably be "Maiara" possibly "Maiarin" (adjectives are commonly ended with an 'a') adding "ic" is just trying to make a quenya word with english rules, it makes me cringe.

The descriptor 'Maiaric' has been used in Tolkien scholarship for many years (refer to Michael Martinez's www.suite101.com as the most accessible example), although 'Maiarin' is certainly acceptable as well. A problem arises, however, when one is talking to a group with varying degrees of fluency in the subject; using the '-ic' suffix is far more recognizable as meaning 'pertaining to' for a wider audience than inserting '-in'. It makes me cringe when folks do not capitalize proper nouns, like languages for instance. *shrugs*

[Lord Tataraus]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The descriptor 'Maiaric' has been used in Tolkien scholarship for many years (refer to Michael Martinez's www.suite101.com as the most accessible example), although 'Maiarin' is certainly acceptable as well. A problem arises, however, when one is talking to a group with varying degrees of fluency in the subject; using the '-ic' suffix is far more recognizable as meaning 'pertaining to' for a wider audience than inserting '-in'. It makes me cringe when folks do not capitalize proper nouns, like languages for instance. *shrugs*

Touché, I usually do capitalize language names (...and proper nouns of course), figures that's the one time I don't.
I don't claim to be much of a scholar, but I have a decent grasp of the language's workings and it just seems so wrong to have "-ic" used as such in Quenya.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The descriptor 'Maiaric' has been used in Tolkien scholarship for many years (refer to Michael Martinez's www.suite101.com as the most accessible example), although 'Maiarin' is certainly acceptable as well. A problem arises, however, when one is talking to a group with varying degrees of fluency in the subject; using the '-ic' suffix is far more recognizable as meaning 'pertaining to' for a wider audience than inserting '-in'. It makes me cringe when folks do not capitalize proper nouns, like languages for instance. *shrugs*

I believe that, in the dim and dusty recesses of the Barrow Downs' past, there was some kind of dust-up between Downers and said MM. I was told when I first arrived that he is not accounted much of an authority in this here Dodge City--by none other than Mithadan the Admin. (His comments can be found in a reference thread deep in the dark archives of the rpg forums--er, fora.)

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The use of 'Maiaric' is much like the use of the word 'Rohirric', another common descriptor long used when discussing Middle-earth. Again, I suppose 'Rohirian' or 'Rohanese' would be equally or more acceptable, but they do not flow off the tongue.

And what is wrong with Rohirrim?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

As for why Gandalf never used the ring it is quite simple: hide the rings of power from Sauron. All of the ring bearers did this, even the dwarves.

But he didn't hide it - it didn't do much besides vanish fear and despair and get people going. Plus Gandalf, being the obvious fraud that he was, wanted people to think that it was he that was the world's greatest cheerleader.

Also, this guy needs to learn how to spell Cirdan and Thraundil.

Careful there. Thought that it was spelled Thranduil. And though I too see spelling errors and grammatical pretzels as icky, I've learned that for some, writing in this tongue that I should know better than I do may be a very impressive feat in itself.

And Welcome! Lord Tataraus. Hope to read your, and not others, opinions soon.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

This guy's an idiot.

Ahem...better manners and arguments make the Downs a better place. (alatar goes to look up a better word than 'better.')

[Lord Tataraus]

Originally Posted by alatar

And Welcome! Lord Tataraus. Hope to read your, and not others, opinions soon.

Thank you (and Groin Redbeard) for the welcome!

I waited a bit to see what other's responses are before giving my opinion.

Firstly, while I do not wish to call anyone an idiot, it seems to be unfortunately appropriate. Lord_Kimboat is obviously not very well versed in Tolkein's work nor D&D despite his confidence. Coming from a RPG background I have the advantage of seeing more flaws in Kimboat's theory than others on this forum. Unfortunately, my knowledge of LotR is a bit rusty, its been awhile since last reading it (I've been working my way through The Silmarillion most recently).

So, my rebuttal paragraph by paragraph:

First Post:
(The first paragraph isn't very relevant so I'll skip it.)

1) Kimboat shortly describes "...how noble and righteous everyone and thing is." I do not agree with this statement, Aragon for one was an exceptional and likable man even without his hereditary lordliness. As Kimboat noted, Sam is most likely so loyal to Frodo for cultural reasons, but I also believe they were honest friends especially after traveling together for so long and Frodo being noticeably hindered by the Ring. There were many examples of not-so-noble characters. Many men were corrupt such as Wormtongue and Denethor and even Theoden wasn't always that "...noble and righteous..." as I recall.

2) Here is Kimboat's first sign of ignorance. Apparently he missed the entire discussion beforehand were it was concluded that magic in Middle-Earth is more subtle than in D&D-type fantasy. Additionally, he seems to think that any respectful magic-user would spam his spells at every little opportunity which is not a view supported by most fantasy works. Most such magic-users are wise and intelligent enough to realize it might be better to save their magic for when it is truly needed. I would also refute the idea that Gandalf "...isn't afraid to bluff people..." My interpretation of Gandalf was that he was always concerned about the knowledge he gave out, he was disturbed by the fact that he did not tell Frodo that the quest would most likely destroy him. Gandalf just doesn't strike me as being able to truly lie to people, he is too trusting and kind, he even tried to talk Saruman out of joining with Sauron even though it was obviously in vain.

3) This is one point that I can't really refute with anything except that Gandalf just doesn't seem the type. His character does not suggest that he would lie about something like that or even that he could. He was very devoted to the Fellowship and would have joined up with them, if only to ease their pain, if he could have done so.

Second Post:
1) I do not expect anyone to have much to say about this paragraph as it has to do directly with D&D mechanics, however this does proved another example of Kimboat's ignorance to those who are knowledgeable with such things. Kimboat uses one of the biggest misconceptions about D&D mechanical class balance within the gaming community. Many newer or less knowledgeable gamers think that the Bard is a wholly useless class as Kimboat so aptly describes. Among those more attuned to the topic of class balance, the Bard is one of the more powerful classes in the entire system. Additionally, the forum this was posted at has a reputation for being one of the more mature and knowledgeable ones in the overall gaming community which makes this statement even more ignorant.

2 and 3) These two paragraphs need no explanation. Any one who knows who Cirdan actually is would see the utter idiocy of this scenario. Additionally, the very power of the rings would prevent such thievery since the wearer can choose to hide its presence entirely.

4-7) as was mentioned by others, the poem is just that, a poem. Poems are famous for choosing their wording for poetic meter not for correctness. Additionally, the poem has been translated and in its original langauge the word that is translated into english as "king" might very well refer to a ruler of either sex. As for Elrond, well a kingdom is a nation ruled over by a hereditary house which is the case with Rivendell, they just call it by a different name. And as mentioned before, Gandalf was recorded as being gifted Cirdan's ring.

8) I can agree with this part.

9) I highly doubt Thranduil wants the ring that badly, it seems to bring more trouble than its worth and I doubt he would risk war with Rivendell (and possibly Lorien) when Sauron is the greater threat. Also, I thought that those at the council were summoned, not "happened to show up conveniently at the same time."

10) Legolas respected Gandalf and as I mentioned above, I doubt Thranduil was that envious of such a dangerous object.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus

Additionally, he seems to think that any respectful magic-user would spam his spells at every little opportunity which is not a view supported by most fantasy works. Most such magic-users are wise and intelligent enough to realize it might be better to save their magic for when it is truly needed. I would also refute the idea that Gandalf "...isn't afraid to bluff people..."

Someone help me here...there's a scene in some fantasy book where an older wizard is teaching a young and thirsty apprentice, and says something like, "Sure, I could make it rain here, but that would take water from a place that truly needed it." The author's point, I think, was to be that one did not use magic in a juvenile fashion. Power, or the use of, has consequences.

Additionally, the poem has been translated and in its original langauge the word that is translated into english as "king" might very well refer to a ruler of either sex. As for Elrond, well a kingdom is a nation ruled over by a hereditary house which is the case with Rivendell, they just call it by a different name.

I think that the original Quenya has it as "Big Cheese."

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Isn't Cirdan a bit old, I mean, 15000 at the end of the third age. Who knows his age now? (7th age)

And Thirandiril (I don't believe this guy read the book at all - it is the spelling of someone who has heard the name not seen it..) wouldbe a babe in arms comparatively... but we established a long time ago

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...uds#post346289

that these Telerin guys have got a lot going for them....elf-husbands of choice of the Alpha females ... Thingol, Celeborn .. I rest my case...

Cirdan would have to lose the beard though... and actually..nah he is a sailor ... forget it.... spent too many parties bored to sobs by yotties...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I just want to know more about this Thirandiril. He sounds hot.

Ha ha.

[Gwathagor]

This guy's an idiot.

First, if he can't spell the names right, why would I be inclined to believe the rest of his assertions of fact? He clearly is not very familiar with Middle-earth.

Second, the poem is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Third, he just makes stuff up - stuff that has no apparent basis in anything Tolkien wrote.

Fourth, he doesn't understand that a wizard means something rather different to Tolkien and the rest of the pre-D&D world than it does to him.

This is more funny than anything else and belongs in the crackpot theory drawer, along with Bombadil's secret life as the Witch-King of Angmar.