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Old 05-05-2008, 06:55 AM   #1
Eönwė
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Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard View Post
The Balrog was higher or equal in rank with Sauron by Morgoth's old standards. Why would the Balrog be enticed by a lowly creation of a lesser Maia in the Second Age? The Balrog was far older than the Ring.
I am sure that Sauron is higher in rank.

Not that it means he is any more powerful, maybe just more cunning. We do know, however, that at the very least taht Gothmog (the Balrog) was.

Whether the Balrog in Moria was or wasn't could be open to debate.
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Old 05-05-2008, 09:03 AM   #2
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Concerning Sauron and the Balrogs, Tolkien (in L144) says,

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The Balrog is a survivor from The Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. . . The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim. . . But it is here found. . .that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains).
Of Sauron, he says (in L131)

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In The Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and becoming his chief captain and servant. . . He becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power.
I think their fates alone show who was the more powerful and masterful. The Balrog fled and hid for most of the next two ages of the world, at the most terrorizing the inhabitants of Khazad-dum and driving them from their home. Sauron went out and set himself as the new Dark Lord, effectively bringing about the destabilization of many cultures in Middle-earth, and bringing about through his deceits and machinations the utter downfall of Numenor. And since in UT, Manwe says that those who are to be sent as the Istari "must be mighty, peers of Sauron," one might well conclude that the Balrog, if he recognized what or even who Gandalf was, would see him as a very immediate threat, to be dealt with at once. The arrogance to which evil often succumbs might make the Balrog think that he could easily deal with this enemy and then go after the Ring (which was still a source of power, especially to any being powerful enough to actually wield it), and perhaps as always, pride went before a fall.

That, however, is really more relevant to chapters to come, I think.

About the illustrations in this chapter: I find it interesting that this still survived as the chapter with the most illustrations, since there were still more that Tolkien had lovingly and painstakingly drawn that were omitted from it. The pages he made from the Book of Mazarbul (complete with damage from fire and water) were intended to be included in this chapter, but were left out, much to his disappointment. I've seen them, and I can understand his feelings. A lot of work went into their making, and they would have been more fascinating to look at than the inscription on Balin's tomb. Constraints of budget, alas.
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:09 PM   #3
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Too much HoME in my blood has me fascinated that, with the end of this chapter, we basically reach the first great pause in the composition of The Lord of the Rings, and the book that resumed later from this point is a lot closer to the finished product than what we had before, which means--at least to a slight extent--that I read the adventures up to the end of this chapter slightly differently than I do those after. Yes, the Wargs after Caradhras are deeper and more serious than the wolves of The Hobbit, but the story still feels a bit more episodic and Hobbit-sequel-esque than the story after Moria.

In a very real sense, to play off an earlier post, not only do the heroes undergo a symbolic (or real, in the case of Gandalf) death when entering underground passages, but the book itself does.

By the way, I wonder if part of what got Tolkien going again was the realisation that Gandalf needed to die here--and, eventually, be reborn. Gandalf up to this point has not be the deus ex machina-prone wizard of The Hobbit, but a far more fallible figure: he fails to arrive before Frodo sets out, and that absence haunted the book till Rivendell. Even once we know what Gandalf faced, he is not the same force of "adult" knowledge in this book as in its predecessor. Thorin would never had contended so consistently with Gandalf over a path of travel as Aragorn does here, though he was far more likely to disagree to disagree with the wizard.

The disagreement between Gandalf and Aragorn was actually the biggest element that stuck with me this reread, if only because Aragorn is always portrayed prior to leaving Rivendell as Gandalf's great friend and helper--and prior rereads had made predominant in my mind the overall deference that Aragorn shows Gandalf, especially as Gandalf the White. And Aragorn is still respectful here, but he definitely disagrees.

I love Moria--I tend to love every new kingdom Tolkien introduces along the road, from Bree through Gondor, but having been elsewhere encountering some childhood memories associated with The Hobbit, I've been thinking about the comparisons between Moria and the Lonely Mountain, and there's almost no comparison: Moria a far richer, more deeply visualised place, and the comparative richness of its description as compared with the Lonely Mountain's simpler exploration in The Hobbit is appropriate. It is one of the crimes of Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy that it transgressed my mental pictures of things by making Erebor even vaster and more impressive than Moria.
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:20 PM   #4
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"Well, here we are at last!" said Gandalf. "Here the Elven-way from Hollin ended. Holly was the token of the people of that land, and they planted it here to mark the end of their domain, for the West-door was made chiefly for their us in their traffic with the Lords of Moria. Those were happier days, when there was still close friendship at time between folk of different race, even between Dwarves and Elves."
You get a feeling in the "happier times" Hollin and Moria were vibrant and wealthy centers. Where the friendship between Elves and Dwarves were beneficial to both races and their respective kingdoms. Now this journey by the Fellowship is rather like a depressing reminder that the emptiness, and darkness of Hollin and Moria wasn't always the case. The friendship between the Elves of Hollin and Lords of Moria ended and with that, there is no signs of life, other than wolf howls and ominous drum-beats, and vague reminders by Gandalf that there were once "happier times" in these lands.

I like Gandalf's temperament in this chapter. You easily recall the instances where he snaps at Pippin's questions and curiosity. But he also doesn't put up with Gimli and Legolas' nonsense over who's to blame for the falling out between the Hollin Elves and Moria dwarves:

Quote:
"I have heard both," said Gandalf; "and I will not give judgement now. But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends and to help me. I need you both. The doors are shut and hidden, and the sooner we find them the better. Night is at hand!"
More noticeable is all the times he has a go with Boromir in these chapters. Pippin's questions are silly, but ultimately innocent and not intended (by Pippin) to question Gandalf's leadership:

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"What are you going to do then?" asked Pippin, undaunted by the wizard's bristling brows."
The "bristling brows" was actually Gandalf's reaction to Boromir's questioning. Pippin, like other instances, had bad timing and was also on the receiving end of Gandalf's temper. But his question was not asked as an attack on Gandalf's character. Pippin doesn't doubt Gandalf's leadership, Boromir quite openly does this right before Pippin's wrong question at the wrong time:

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"Then what was the use of bring us to this accursed spot?" cried Boromir, glancing back with a shudder at the dark water. "You told us that you had once passed through the Mines. How could that be if you did not know how to enter?"
Boromir's openly challenging and questioning Gandalf's leadership, and pretty much calling Gandalf a liar by bringing them all here. This of course puts Boromir in a bad light to readers. However, Boromir's character is that of a soldier and war-leader. It's his greatest weakness, but also the reason for his redemption. He perceives everything through the lens of battles and weapons, he's practical. Leadership on a battlefield is quite different than Gandalf's leadership. Boromir, "the General," knows it's foolish to lead his soldiers to a place telling them he's been there before, but when they get there "uhh..I need help finding the entrance and I'm not even sure I remember how to get in if we find the doors." To make those choices on a battlefield would be rightfully foolish for any general.

However, this isn't a field of battle, and Gandalf displays a different form of leadership. Leadership which Aragorn says is "never useless" and would even cost Gandalf his life, if it was necessary. I'm interested in seeing if and how Aragorn displays both Boromir's and Gandalf's leadership, which came to a head in this chapter (and interestingly is a precursor to Gandalf's and Denethor's views on "Stewardship.")
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