Is it possible: 1 Silmaril found: The Arkenstone - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ArathornJax · 05-13-2008, 08:25 PM

I don't see how the Arkenstone can be a Silmaril. First, the Silmarils were hallowed by Varda that no mortal hands or flesh unclean or evil could handle them but that they would be scorched. There are no exceptions here and dwarves are not like the Eldar, immortal, but only have an extended lifespan, and in the end, die as they are mortals.

Mandos said that they contained in them the fates of Arda, earth, sea and air were locked in them. And in the end, that is where they went into the earth, the sea and one placed in the air until after the final battle.

Based on this I believe that the Silmarils are found in the sky or air, in the depths of the earth and in the depths of the sea until the final battle. The Arkenstone is just what it is, a jewel that is beautiful and desirable but not a Silmaril.

What is interesting to me is the similarity between Feanor and Thorin. Feanor eventually begun to be greedy about the Silmarils, showing them only to his seven sons and his father, forgetting that the light within them was not his own. Thorin too, became very greedy with the Arkenstone, to the point of forgetting all the good Bilbo had done and wanting him dead. Why, because the Arkenstone was a Silmaril? No, but its beauty and power burned to his dwarven heart and his greed made him forget about the finer things in life. Unlike the Silmarils which drove the sons of Feanor to their deaths, the Arkenstone united the men of Dale/Longlake, the Elves of Mrikwood and the Dwarves of Erebor when Dain paid the debt for the Arkenstone and it was placed on Thorin in his tomb. Clearly for me, and others can dispute my belief and that is fine, IF the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, after defeating the Goblins and Wargs, the Elves, Men and Dwarves would have gone at it. That didn't happen (unlike the events at Doriath) and instead the Arkenstone is a great and wonderful jewel, an heirloom of Durin's folks and their kings, and it brought unity as Bilbo intended and nothing more. And for that matter, Bilbo did not scorch and wither after touching the Arkenstone several times (being mortal).

For me the Silmarils were not destined for this world to be seen until after the final battle . . . that is, unless Indiana Jones gets news of them and goes hunting them . . . then all bets are off.

Eönwë · 05-14-2008, 03:16 PM

But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal.

Morthoron · 05-14-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal.

The Silmaril, a holy jewel containing the mingled light of the Two Trees, in direct contact with the One Ring, the symbol of corruption and great evil? Bilbo would have imploded.

Lindale · 06-26-2008, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal.

I beg to differ. Bearing a Ring of power, even if it is the greatest, does not take away mortality. What it does, mainly, is like.... too little butter on too large a toast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion, page 305, published by Harper Collins

And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.

There... I think that would disclose any theory that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril. Not withstanding the argument that no mortal hand can touch a Silmaril by virtue of Varda's blessing... and come on. Though Thorin can be considered a "high" dwarf, a Silmaril, something that hallowed, would not suffer such a meager fate. (Meager in the sense that what, it'll just lie forever in the hands of a Dwarvish skeleton in a mountain.)

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 06-26-2008, 08:35 AM

Speaking of which, the Arkenstone seemed to have a hold on Thorin's mind somewhat like that of the 7 rings. Maybe it was crafted with the aid of Sauron's rings?

"Prreecciiiouuss..." - Thorin Oakenshield

Lindale · 06-27-2008, 10:47 PM

DIdn't the Dwarves find the Arkenstone in the Lonely Mountain as an uncut gem? Haven't got my Hobbit with me, but I'll bet my life, it's a natural stone...

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 07-04-2008, 12:22 AM

The Arkenstone was not a silmaril, I'm pretty sure because the silmarils as stated earlier were very precious and it was said that they were in their proper places until the world was ending, so the Arkenstone=Silmaril, no. Besides mortals weren't supposed to touch them. Also I don't think that they have very much in common with each other other than they are both beautiful jewels that bring out ones greediness. Also the Arkenstone I believe had many more sides than a Silmaril had and looked a bit different otherwise too. They both had internal lights, but I would definitely think that the SIlmaril's would be more wholesome, if you know what I mean, because the light comes from the two trees themselves... Did the Arkenstone's light have a warm glow like a living object, or was it a kind of white light?

Stoatly Grimes · 07-05-2008, 05:07 PM

I have read most of the posts relating to this idea of the Arkenstone being a Silmaril. I am surprised at how many of you people seem to entertain this clearly false idea. I feel I need to step in to bring some sense to the table.

I genuinely am shocked at how Tolkien's language is misunderstood in this particular debate. I understand that in the Balrog wings debate / Elf ear-shape debate etc. his ambiguous language serves to fuel debate and provides ammunition for both sides, but on this Arkenstone matter you are fooling yourselves. You are looking for evidence that is not there, and re-wording or re-interpreting Tolkien's language in order to make it fit. Have you heard of Occam's Razor? At a certain point you must step back and realise that the argument in favour of the proposition is extraordinarily cumbersome and full of holes.

Don't get me wrong, full respect to Gwaihir for that interesting article about volcanoes etc. I'm not having a go at him; I fear the talons immensely.

The idea that a Silmaril could be tossed aside (as it is when Thorin dies) is ridiculous and anyone with an understanding of the Silmarillion should realise this. The entire story is based upon the covetous nature the gems instill in beings and the years of terrible deeds that result.

It is possible that another gem existed in Arda. Wow! Think about that. In fact the Hobbit quite clearly explains that this stone was discovered in uncut form and worked by the dwarves.

Not everything in Tolkien has to be tied in and interlinked.

(Though I did read an interesting theory recently - tongue-in-cheek of course - that Bombadil and the Witch-king are the same person)

05-13-2008, 08:25 PM	#1
ArathornJax Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Out West near a Big Salty Lake Posts: 76	My two bits or more I don't see how the Arkenstone can be a Silmaril. First, the Silmarils were hallowed by Varda that no mortal hands or flesh unclean or evil could handle them but that they would be scorched. There are no exceptions here and dwarves are not like the Eldar, immortal, but only have an extended lifespan, and in the end, die as they are mortals. Mandos said that they contained in them the fates of Arda, earth, sea and air were locked in them. And in the end, that is where they went into the earth, the sea and one placed in the air until after the final battle. Based on this I believe that the Silmarils are found in the sky or air, in the depths of the earth and in the depths of the sea until the final battle. The Arkenstone is just what it is, a jewel that is beautiful and desirable but not a Silmaril. What is interesting to me is the similarity between Feanor and Thorin. Feanor eventually begun to be greedy about the Silmarils, showing them only to his seven sons and his father, forgetting that the light within them was not his own. Thorin too, became very greedy with the Arkenstone, to the point of forgetting all the good Bilbo had done and wanting him dead. Why, because the Arkenstone was a Silmaril? No, but its beauty and power burned to his dwarven heart and his greed made him forget about the finer things in life. Unlike the Silmarils which drove the sons of Feanor to their deaths, the Arkenstone united the men of Dale/Longlake, the Elves of Mrikwood and the Dwarves of Erebor when Dain paid the debt for the Arkenstone and it was placed on Thorin in his tomb. Clearly for me, and others can dispute my belief and that is fine, IF the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, after defeating the Goblins and Wargs, the Elves, Men and Dwarves would have gone at it. That didn't happen (unlike the events at Doriath) and instead the Arkenstone is a great and wonderful jewel, an heirloom of Durin's folks and their kings, and it brought unity as Bilbo intended and nothing more. And for that matter, Bilbo did not scorch and wither after touching the Arkenstone several times (being mortal). For me the Silmarils were not destined for this world to be seen until after the final battle . . . that is, unless Indiana Jones gets news of them and goes hunting them . . . then all bets are off. __________________ "At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts." JRR Tolkien in 6 October 1940 letter to Michael Tolkien

05-14-2008, 03:16 PM	#2
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	But Bilbo had the ring at the time, so maybe he was, in some way, immortal. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place

06-26-2008, 08:35 AM	#5
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Reversal Speaking of which, the Arkenstone seemed to have a hold on Thorin's mind somewhat like that of the 7 rings. Maybe it was crafted with the aid of Sauron's rings? "Prreecciiiouuss..." - Thorin Oakenshield __________________ 'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.'

06-27-2008, 10:47 PM	#6
Lindale Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: midway upon... in a forest dark Posts: 975	DIdn't the Dwarves find the Arkenstone in the Lonely Mountain as an uncut gem? Haven't got my Hobbit with me, but I'll bet my life, it's a natural stone... __________________ The heart does things for reasons Reason itself cannot comprehend. - Blaise Pascal Legal Madness.

07-04-2008, 12:22 AM	#7
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	The Arkenstone was not a silmaril, I'm pretty sure because the silmarils as stated earlier were very precious and it was said that they were in their proper places until the world was ending, so the Arkenstone=Silmaril, no. Besides mortals weren't supposed to touch them. Also I don't think that they have very much in common with each other other than they are both beautiful jewels that bring out ones greediness. Also the Arkenstone I believe had many more sides than a Silmaril had and looked a bit different otherwise too. They both had internal lights, but I would definitely think that the SIlmaril's would be more wholesome, if you know what I mean, because the light comes from the two trees themselves... Did the Arkenstone's light have a warm glow like a living object, or was it a kind of white light? __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

07-05-2008, 05:07 PM	#8
Stoatly Grimes Newly Deceased Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Harbour's edge Posts: 7	Come off it, team. I have read most of the posts relating to this idea of the Arkenstone being a Silmaril. I am surprised at how many of you people seem to entertain this clearly false idea. I feel I need to step in to bring some sense to the table. I genuinely am shocked at how Tolkien's language is misunderstood in this particular debate. I understand that in the Balrog wings debate / Elf ear-shape debate etc. his ambiguous language serves to fuel debate and provides ammunition for both sides, but on this Arkenstone matter you are fooling yourselves. You are looking for evidence that is not there, and re-wording or re-interpreting Tolkien's language in order to make it fit. Have you heard of Occam's Razor? At a certain point you must step back and realise that the argument in favour of the proposition is extraordinarily cumbersome and full of holes. Don't get me wrong, full respect to Gwaihir for that interesting article about volcanoes etc. I'm not having a go at him; I fear the talons immensely. The idea that a Silmaril could be tossed aside (as it is when Thorin dies) is ridiculous and anyone with an understanding of the Silmarillion should realise this. The entire story is based upon the covetous nature the gems instill in beings and the years of terrible deeds that result. It is possible that another gem existed in Arda. Wow! Think about that. In fact the Hobbit quite clearly explains that this stone was discovered in uncut form and worked by the dwarves. Not everything in Tolkien has to be tied in and interlinked. (Though I did read an interesting theory recently - tongue-in-cheek of course - that Bombadil and the Witch-king are the same person)