What's up with Celeborn?

[Thinlómien]

I always thought that he was referring to the fading of Lothlórien, his kingdom that won't remain the same and that will diminish. As much as he loved Galadriel, I cannot see him referring to her as his treasure - it sounds way too possessive, and we all knew who was the boss in that family . And it's not only that, really, there's something else there also why it would feel inappropriate and besides, if Celeborn indeed went to West later (which I hope and believe he did), he would still have Galadriel for ever, so the Galadriel-explanation would not make sense.

The Celebrian-interpretation doesn't work either, if Celeborn indeed went to the West. For Celebrían went there also, and when Celeborn (and Galadriel and Elrond and his sons - wow, I never imagined the tale had such a happy ending! ) eventually went to Valinor, he would meet her too and there is a hope she would have found healing in the West. And besides, I can't see Tolkien making Celeborn refer to Celebrían in that moment - she's not truly part of the story of LotR and I can't see why she would made a part of one of Celeborn's most important lines.

Now, The Might's interpretation is very intriguing. However, I don't think we can prove it either wrong or right, but it surely gives something to think about...

Originally Posted by Gwath

Someone had to be there to bury her, though. It might have been Celeborn and friends, but I guess it seems unlikely that they would STILL be there at that late stage.

That is such a powerful image, really. I can see it and it makes a chill run down my spine. In the graying and fading Lothlórien, its Lord stands on Cerin Amroth with a few of his closest subjects who have stayed with him. There is a great sorrow in his eyes and he looks older than ever, when he holds the dead body of his granddaughter in his arms and eventually lowers her to her grave and they bury her. Then he casts one last look at the grave and says "My work is done" and sails to the West.

But, unfortunately, I had the wits to check appendix A and it says:

Then she [Arwen] said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the sea.

So there were no Elves in Lórien anymore, and it looks like she merely went there and died and was not buried, but her corpse was left - to be blunt - to rot on Cerin Amroth and decomposed there. Or maybe it just vanished (yet remained in Certin Amroth) in some more poetic way, but nevertheless it looks like she was never buried.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Just to be silly for a moment.....

We all know that Celeborn was a bit of a stand-up comedian, after all his 'old wives' comment was the funniest in LoTR.

A little off-topic question: Which comment? I probably did not find it the funniest in LotR, because I don't remember it at all...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I always thought that he was referring to the fading of Lothlórien, his kingdom that won't remain the same and that will diminish. As much as he loved Galadriel, I cannot see him referring to her as his treasure - it sounds way too possessive, and we all knew who was the boss in that family.

I am not opposing the last part of the sentence , but I must oppose the first conclusion. He could have referred to Galadriel, and speaking of "treasure", I would say that you are unnecessarily interpretating it the worst possible way. Surely when someone calls another "treasure", the primary meaning is not that he would claim ownership over the other. And I doubt this was meant like this. I must say, what you said kind of shocked me, because I regarded this (thinking, as I posted above, that he is indeed referring to Arwen, resp. Galadriel here) as "oh look how much he values Galadriel, comparing her to a treasure" - and now you downplay it by interpretating it in this nasty way. Be ashamed of yourself! It was surely not "may the one you own remain with you till the end" but "may the one who is most important to you remain with you till the end"!
If it is referring to Arwen and Galadriel in the first place, of course. But I would say, what you said could not be definitely taken as a proof that this variant is impossible.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And it's not only that, really, there's something else there also why it would feel inappropriate and besides, if Celeborn indeed went to West later (which I hope and believe he did), he would still have Galadriel for ever, so the Galadriel-explanation would not make sense.

Haha, and you know what? Here you say "He would still have Galadriel". Now who is using wrong semantics here

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate

A little off-topic question: Which comment? I probably did not find it the funniest in LotR, because I don't remember it at all...

I think he means this:

Originally Posted by Farewell to Lórien

"Then I need say no more," said Celeborn. "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

Originally Posted by Legate

I am not opposing the last part of the sentence, but I must oppose the first conclusion. He could have referred to Galadriel, and speaking of "treasure", I would say that you are unnecessarily interpretating it the worst possible way. Surely when someone calls another "treasure", the primary meaning is not that he would claim ownership over the other. And I doubt this was meant like this. I must say, what you said kind of shocked me, because I regarded this (thinking, as I posted above, that he is indeed referring to Arwen, resp. Galadriel here) as "oh look how much he values Galadriel, comparing her to a treasure" - and now you downplay it by interpretating it in this nasty way. Be ashamed of yourself! It was surely not "may the one you own remain with you till the end" but "may the one who is most important to you remain with you till the end"!

Well, well, well, you're certainly making me laugh. (Not because your point would be ridiculous or anything like that, more because of the tone of your argument.)
I do not mean that I would assume that anyone calling someone a treasure would claim ownership over her/him, but I think there is a certain possesive edge to the word and if you call someone a treasure, it looks like you're kind of taking a higher status compared to him/her, which I can't see Celeborn doing with Galadriel. I do not seek to "incriminate" the word or emphasise these subtle minor tones in it, I just don't think it would have occurred to Celeborn to use that word of Galadriel, or that if he meant to imply something like what you say he implied, some other word would have occured to him first, because of the quality* of his and Galadriel's relationship.

*quality meaning "sort" or "type" here, not in the sense as in "good quality product"

Originally Posted by Legate

Haha, and you know what? Here you say "He would still have Galadriel". Now who is using wrong semantics here

But I didn't mean it that way and it really isn't in contradiction with what I talked about being possesive earlier - I think "have" is a far more equal term than "treasure", because you usually think people can "have" each other, while the one who possesses a treasure owns it, but the the treasure doesn't own the person. (Okay, in a way, it might - but that is philosophy and unrelated to the original topic! )

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I do not mean that I would assume that anyone calling someone a treasure would claim ownership over her/him, but I think there is a certain possesive edge to the word and if you call someone a treasure, it looks like you're kind of taking a higher status compared to him/her, which I can't see Celeborn doing with Galadriel. I do not seek to "incriminate" the word or emphasise these subtle minor tones in it, I just don't think it would have occurred to Celeborn to use that word of Galadriel, or that if he meant to imply something like what you say he implied, some other word would have occured to him first, because of the quality* of his and Galadriel's relationship.

Well, I can't say definitely, because personally I don't think that I have ever called anyone "treasure" and it is probably not a word that would occur to me to use, but simply evaluating it I don't see anything bad about it. Yes, it is about how both the one who uses it and also the recipient interpretate it (and had not C&G known each other for thousands of years, it may have been possible that if this were used about Galadriel, and she would interpretate it in the worse way, as soon as the Company left she could have turned to Celeborn: "How dare you-!"), but I think it is not necessary that Celeborn could not have used it. Maybe he would simply belong to the cathegory of people who don't see anything wrong on the word. If we were not to speak about Celeborn but about let's say Thranduil, then I daresay a metaphore of treasure would be indeed quite a compliment (Although now maybe I'd start to worry whether in his case it wouldn't be too simple, and maybe in referring to people specifically he would move into a higher cathegory from the "material" one.)

But I didn't mean it that way and it really isn't in contradiction with what I talked about being possesive earlier - I think "have" is a far more equal term than "treasure", because you usually think people can "have" each other, while the one who possesses a treasure owns it, but the the treasure doesn't own the person. (Okay, in a way, it might - but that is philosophy and unrelated to the original topic! )

Hm, I would actually say "have" is worse than "treasure", but that's also a matter of opinion (I only had in mind the fact that in most cases, "have" is used in the meaning "own"). And not sure if it isn't a little cultural/language determined. But in any case, the main point was: if you thought the use of the term "treasure" in the sentence quoted, if it were to be about Galadriel, would be inappropriate, then I say: the usage of "have" you posed could be interpretated in a similar way.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Is it possible that the "treasure" to which Celeborn referred is his realm? It was known that if the quest to destroy the Ring succeeded, Lothlorien would fade, diminish, and, as we know, ultimately be no more. Celeborn's "doom" may have been to return to his realm to oversee it until finally, its population would dwindle and depart, leaving him to depart as well (which we know he did, even if we don't know for certain where he went). His "treasure," the realm he had worked long and hard to build and guard from the ravages of the world, would be lost. Aragorn, on the other hand, was fated to return to his realm, which was growing. Hopefully, it would continue to grow and flourish, so that by the time the Doom of Men came to him at the end of his days, he would leave not an empty realm, but one full of hope and promise for a greater future -- his "treasure" remaining with him to the end.

No canonical support for this, of course, but perhaps it is a suitable interpretation.

[Rumil]

OK, I think I'm beginning to get my head round this (famous last words!).

I like Lommy's interpretation that Celeborn is talking about his future (and eternal, up to Dagor Dagorath anyway) loss of Arwen. He knows that Arwen as chosen the fate of man and therefore his treasured grand-daughter will be lost to him. He hopes that Aragorn and Arwen will be together 'till the end' but cannot be sure as 'the Gift' is mysterious.

I also think that the heart-rending scene of Celeborn burying Arwen makes a lot of sense. Maybe its no surprise that he was not present in Lorien when Arwen arrived, this would have been an impossible thing for Celeborn to deal with. However, once she had died I'd like to think he came over (from Greenwood?) to bury her. This explains something I've always had difficulties with, ie. why did Celeborn stay and Galadriel go? I think this was the real reason that he had to stay, not the entreaties of the Galadrhim, for surely they wished Galadriel to stay just as fervently?

Meanwhile, on a lighter note-

The scene - On leaving Lothlorien, the Fellowship are discussing their route with Galdriel and Celeborn...

"Indeed we have heard of Fangorn in Minas Tirith," said Boromir. "But what I have heard seems to me for the most part old wives' tales, such as we tell to children. etc"

"Then I need say no more," said Celeborn. "But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know."

Though I guess he tactfully failed to mention that his wife was over 7000 years old!

(Ooops Cross-posted with Thinlomien there! [steadfastly ignoring PC debate ;-)

[Thinlómien]

I like Lommy's interpretation that Celeborn is talking about his future (and eternal, up to Dagor Dagorath anyway) loss of Arwen. He knows that Arwen as chosen the fate of man and therefore his treasured grand-daughter will be lost to him. He hopes that Aragorn and Arwen will be together 'till the end' but cannot be sure as 'the Gift' is mysterious.

I didn't actually say that but it makes sense, too...

I also think that the heart-rending scene of Celeborn burying Arwen makes a lot of sense. Maybe its no surprise that he was not present in Lorien when Arwen arrived, this would have been an impossible thing for Celeborn to deal with. However, once she had died I'd like to think he came over (from Greenwood?) to bury her. This explains something I've always had difficulties with, ie. why did Celeborn stay and Galadriel go? I think this was the real reason that he had to stay, not the entreaties of the Galadrhim, for surely they wished Galadriel to stay just as fervently?

Actually, that's a good idea and it explains also why it says "Galadriel had passed and Celeborn also was gone", because it looks like it implies that they were away in different ways and if they had both gone to the West, it would be odd. But it still doesn't prove anything you say, because it could also imply that Celeborn was in Rivendell, or it could just be a very poetic formulation à la Tolkien.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Though I guess he tactfully failed to mention that his wife was over 7000 years old!
(Ooops Cross-posted with Thinlomien there! [steadfastly ignoring PC debate ;-)

to both...

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Or maybe it just vanished (yet remained in Certin Amroth) in some more poetic way, but nevertheless it looks like she was never buried.

Actually, there IS a reference somewhere to Arwen's "green grave" being in Cerin Amroth, so someone had to have been there to bury her. Of course, since we know it wasn't Celeborn, it's not really relevant to this thread.

Regarding The Might's theory that Celeborn is making a reference to the different fates of Elves and Men, I find this unlikely since Celeborn says "may your fate be different than mine" rather than "may your fate be different than ours." "Mine" makes it seem likely that he is referring to something that is personal and unique to him.

[Gwathagor]

The question is not "would it occur to Celeborn to use 'treasure' to refer to his wife?", but "would it occur to Tolkien to use the word in that way?" - to which I think the answer is probably 'yes'.

I also like Ibrin's idea that Celeborn may have alternatively been referring to his realm, because that contrasts well with Aragorn's situation.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, given the text and the time in which this was said, I tend to agree with Ibrin's assessment as well. It was sort of a closing observation, and a sincere wish for the restored kingdom and Aragorn's future, contrasted with his own.

Besides, I can't imagine Celeborn bringing up his own deeply personal life at such a parting, no matter how well the different interpretations refering to it might fit the situation. It would be a highly unsuitable way to part with Aragorn, and I just don't believe that Celeborn would be that self indulgent. What good would it do to depress the young pup, after all?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As to Arwen's burial- it's always been my impression (w/o actual evidence) that very few of the Silvan natives of Lorien or Mirkwood were disposed to leave or seek the west- they just dwindled to a "little folk of dell and cave." Legolas was (a) a Sindarin prince and (b) one who had seen the Sea and heard the gulls (obviously a turning-point in his life)

I agree with Lommy that Celeborn's treasure is Arwen, his granddaughter who lived with him for ages.

[Galin]

Hammond and Scull note regarding these words: 'He is expressing the hope that Arwen will never leave Aragorn, as he knows that Galadriel will soon be leaving him, to return to Valinor across the Sea.' (RC)

And I note from Sauron Defeated...

'Elanor was silent for some time before she spoke again. 'I did not undestand at first what Celeborn meant when he said goodbye to the King,' she said. 'But I think I do now. He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad'. Her hand felt for his, and his brown hand clasped her slender fingers. 'For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'

JRRT, Epilogue second version

[Thinlómien]

Great, Galin, one more enigma solved then... that is, if we can trust on Tolkien making Elanor solve the riddle for us, which I think we can.

Originally Posted by Legate

If we were not to speak about Celeborn but about let's say Thranduil, then I daresay a metaphore of treasure would be indeed quite a compliment

Even if we assume he valued material treasure greatly, it does not remove the possesive tone to the word.

Originally Posted by Legate

Hm, I would actually say "have" is worse than "treasure", but that's also a matter of opinion (I only had in mind the fact that in most cases, "have" is used in the meaning "own"). And not sure if it isn't a little cultural/language determined.

Yes, I agree that it probably is a matter of opinion. (Now I'm swaying off-topic, but we don't even have a verb like "have" in Finnish, we simply use our "be" verb and certain cases to imply possession... now shouldn't I then regard the verb "to have" as stronger than as would someone in whose native language it appears? Clearly interesting...)

Originally Posted by Gwath

Actually, there IS a reference somewhere to Arwen's "green grave" being in Cerin Amroth, so someone had to have been there to bury her. Of course, since we know it wasn't Celeborn, it's not really relevant to this thread.

Yes, there is, it's in the passage I quoted and I'm well aware of it. However, I think the word "grave" could be interpreted less literally, that it could just mean the place where her remains were, I don't think it has to mean a literal grave.

Originally Posted by Gwath

The question is not "would it occur to Celeborn to use 'treasure' to refer to his wife?", but "would it occur to Tolkien to use the word in that way?" - to which I think the answer is probably 'yes'.

Now that is a very good point, I think. Although, it might have been a little careless of Tolkien...

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I agree with Lommy that Celeborn's treasure is Arwen, his granddaughter who lived with him for ages.

Now why is everybody saying I said that? As far as I know, I didn't...