Tol-in-Gaurhoth XLVII: Dueling Wizards Werewolf II

[Cailín]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Did anyone else wonder at this? (I accidentally posted this as Lommy and deleted it, in case someone saw it and wondered.)

I had not noticed but I doubt it is anything but a typo. If anything, it makes Volo look more innocent, because werewolves would be more careful to avoid mistakes such as that.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Volo

1. Wolf - scry: Baddies lose one player, goodies gain.
2. Wolf - lynch: Baddies lose one player.
3. EW - scry: EW revealed to GW.
4. EW - lynch: EW revealed to all.
1. is better than 2. and 4. is better than 3. Ah, but for heaven's sake, why don't we just search for Baddies and not discuss how we should do it and whether we should search for only some baddies and not others. Come on!

Exactly my opinion, especially the latter part.

Originally Posted by Rikae

After all, even if we find the EW, she has time to make this a wolf-heavy village before she can be defeated.

I might risk sleeping on the couch by this, but I have to disagree with you, my love. If by the time the EW can finally be defeated we still haven't found him, we find ourselves in a situation that is difficult to describe in family-friendly terms.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Did anyone else wonder at this?

I'm not sure what's worse: Volo making a statement that can be read as a wolf slip (but I remember an ancestor of him making a wolf slip while being innocent, too ), or A Little Green pointing out the quote - without any opinion of her own - in order to have the mob feast on it while keeping her own hands clean.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

My poor father! And my poor... erm... whoever the man was

Sally, thank you for your kind, albeit a little bloodthirsty at first, words. Go and comfort your aunt, I am fine now, and I will voice my opinions among the other villagers... (or should I say: family-members...)

Some comments made on the way to different posts that caught my eye, sorry for it being so long and somewhat badly arranged (and maybe difficult to read for the quotes), but that's just how I went when reading, and the size of the village... Just for now, here we go:

Originally Posted by mormegil

I take statements like this as fairly suspicous comments, all but the bolded one most of all. I don't know why they just don't sit well with me. It always makes me think they are trying to distance themselves with nightly activity.

You mean, trying to distance themselves from nightly activity? If this is so, I don't think so... simply a comment and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Or the EW could have counted on people assuming that no one obvious would be picked and so picked the most obvious. We can't know for certain, and so we shouldn't rule anyone out.

Quite.

Originally Posted by mormegil

No, we can't no for certain can we? However, I consider playing the odds the best bet at this stage of the game. If I were the EW, well I would pick...well there's something I must do but I will be back.

I think this doesn't have as big value as you make it seem. The village is too large, the options are too many, peoples' opinions are too different (a Wizard might have picked anybody), although of course yes, such things may be helpful, but they might prove all too tricky if we for example tried to discern whether a person we suspect is a Wolf based on that. "I suspect X, but in fact, I don't think the EW would've picked him, so I say let him go." That would be certainly the worst thing to do with such knowledge. But besides, and we already saw Cailín do that, why not.

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Sorry to sound simple, but if I remember someone saying correctly that both the GW and EW control the actions of their servants, and can overide any decision, action, hidden message and their natures in the game as well. I understand that it makes sense to keep all of your ducks in a row and use them in good time, but why would someone in such a position be so nervous about whom they relate with, if they are the only ones who can talk with them? The seer is the only possibility of ultimately figuring out the identity of anyone, and obviously would be lucky to bag a werewolf, let alone their leader (or, at least figure out who's their fellow gifted).

Like someone before, I am not sure what is meant by this. But simply, concerning this topic: I think the EW would not tell the Wolves who she is, and she could eventually tell them who the other Wolves are, but with some tactic planning - to which size, I can't tell. Well who knows.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

The reason the EW may not want the wolves to know her identity is because if the GW scries a werewolf, that wolf imediately changes sides and becomes an ordo. More importantly, an ordo who knows the identity of the EW and can share it with the village. Each wizard wants to protect their own identity sso that they can challenge the other wizard on their own terms, ie. when the conditions are in favor of their respective teams. So the EW is hesitant to the wolves any information.

Well, quite.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I can't remember who said what exactly (it's late for me), but it seems like the key here is to try to track down the Evil Wizard, because he/she is constant whereas the wolves can change any day. In the couple of games that I have played, a case is usually built against a player over a period of several days, based on voting records and other accumulated evidence and suspicion. Hardly ever is the first person lynched a wolf, which I think demonstrates that a single day is rarely enough to identify a baddie, which is why I think it's better to make a concerted effort to find the EW, than to scramble about every day trying to flush out that day's unique wolf line-up. No, I'm not saying "don't look for wolves." But I do think most of our energy should be directed towards tracking down the EW. In my opinion.

Not sure about this. I think the wolves are somewhat more important to take care of, but...

Originally Posted by mum Roa

I'm not saying that the EW isn't important. Obviously both wizards are fundamentally important to the game. (That's why it's Dueling Wizards.) However, I don't think finding her is as "key" as you think it is. Keeping the wolf population low should be our first priority.

Yes, the wolves are the most important thing. But in any case, if one suspects a person for being a Wolf, or the EW, simply, he should go for it. It does not matter in the end - baddie is a baddie.

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Why must it be a choice of either focusing on the wolves, or focusing on the EW? Can we not multi-task? The GW is perhaps better equiped at finding the EW, yet there is no crime in helping her out.

That's what I thought, summing it up quite nicely.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Firstly, I'm quite baffled by the phantom (actually, I'm quite baffled about everything...). I don't get the meaning of this, I'm afraid, and I don't like the way it's phrased. Also, I'm uneasy about the way he seems to be deliberately attention-seeking with all the "if I was the EW" and "please scry me" and -comments. I don't think the EW would behave that way though, and I'm not entirely convinced that a wolf would, either, but... There's something weird about him, but I can't say what. (Mac, my son, whatever did you and that Rikae feed him when he was a kid?)

I am not sure about tp. If you ask what they fed him, I would guess they fed him cobblers - but that's (fortunately) impossible. By the way, let me add a corresponding thought.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Anyway, I wonder whether wolves will act differently in this game than usual. I mean, usually they fall somewhere in the interval between just staying hidden and actively trying to lynch innocents. Here, they could have the additional task to divert our eyes (and the eyes of GW and seer) from the EW. Also, since the wolves can be remade, the loss of one is not as crucial as it is in a regular village. This might be less careful about not being lynched than usual.

Even though someone mentioned the possibility of Wolves given suicidal tasks here, it is still a loss for the EW if a wolf is lynched; she cannot win that way. She wins by getting huuuundreds (okay, maybe not as much. Just huundreds) of wolves here (of course, she can win by delaying... but by delaying, the possibility of a scry on her rises).

As for phantom, I think he is just "showing off" and trying to really be scried by the Wizards because he wants to enjoy it - in this I'd believe him saying his honest feelings

Originally Posted by Volo

I strongly doubt that the EW has solely chosen her Wolves from "our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers". Thinking that way is dangerous, dangerous! If I were an EW I'd put a bit from her a bit from there. One or two "famous, vocal and illustrous villagers", one or two less so and one or two of completely not so (if we have any of those around).

Good point, however then as the Wizards sent a list, it may happen that let's say there were three "famous etc" villagers, and three "normal" etc. and it ended up being picked that there are three "famous", you get what I mean? But that's just to mention this option.

By the way, Volo's points (like that list 1.2.3.4. of his) make sense, however for some reason I have the feeling that he's not being himself.

Originally Posted by Cailín

I had not noticed but I doubt it is anything but a typo. If anything, it makes Volo look more innocent, because werewolves would be more careful to avoid mistakes such as that.

I also feel to not giving it any value. However as for seeing him more innocent because of that, I would not think so, as he may have been given a task, bah, whatever... I simply think it makes no sense to give any value to it.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I'm not sure what's worse: Volo making a statement that can be read as a wolf slip (but I remember an ancestor of him making a wolf slip while being innocent, too), or A Little Green pointing out the quote - without any opinion of her own - in order to have the mob feast on it while keeping her own hands clean.

I also thought similarly.

All in all - I like Mac, I feel good about Lommy... and maybe even about Aganzir (although, you'd better stay away from my girlfriend, okay? If you have any problems, it's no longer my concern! ! ) I don't like Volo, somewhat I am aware of Greenie and of Gwath, but then I know it may be a mistake... although the last time he was... hmph. I don't know what to think about phantom... though I would think he's ordo... anyway, there's so many people I can't name them all.

EDIT: x-ed with Cel and Ka

[satansaloser2005]

It's good to see more people talking, and though it's a fairly typical first day it's shaping up fairly nicely. Sadly, I took an afterNoon nap (aka I slept in) so I don't have time to read the posts as thoroughly as I'd like. For now, though, the player that I remember bothering me the most is Phantom. Now, Legate, I know he's a good business partner and all, but for today at least my vote must go towards him.

++Phantom



(I'll probably be out for the rest of the Day, unless I manage to snag some wireless over break, so provided that I'm not lynched or night killed or something I'll see you all toMorrow)

Oh, and Noggie, thanks for clearing that up!

[Kath]

*hugs Brinn* ... and beats morm over the head for voting for my loved one!

I'll admit it, this is a checking in post, I have been charged with sorting dinner out so I won't be around for a bit. You'll have me all evening though!

Just something though as I did skim the posts on my way through. I understand what phantom was saying about needing to focus on getting the EW, but I think we're more likely to catch wolves than wizards and we do need to ensure we get some of those as well or we're going up to scary numbers of deaths in a 48 hour period and lessening our chances statistics wise.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

*whispers to himself, looking at Aganzir* Now I recall why I liked her... Oh my. She makes sense. She was always clever. Only she had to become such a hateful person...

Anyway, I guess I'm going to be off for a short while... but will return soon to see what's happened.

Sally, my dear, feel free to vote for Phantom, I am not going to blame you for that... although I probably won't stand by you in this decision, you must understand he has been my friend and business partner for too long... not to mention he is my cousin (well who isn't, right... apart from you maybe...). But as I said, at least for now, I won't even suspect him that much. I think he has always been like that...

Will be back.

[Roa_Aoife]

Quick post before I head off to work- I'll be back on my lunch break to vote.

Originally Posted by Mac

Now I just talked about wolves maybe acting differently, and then I spot a classic "I'm not suspicious, but I'm suspicious" already on the first page.

It was only his first post. Even I'm not that good at wolf spotting. I'm suspicious of everyone. I'm extra suspicious of phantom, but I'm not certain. Or at least I wasn't after one post. Is that a better way to state it?

Originally Posted by Mac

The GW is going to search for the EW with his scries. Picking someone as a wolf who could be assumed to be the EW is unwise, because the chance that the person will be turned back into an ordo due to the searching GW is high.

Every EW will work differently. The EW could have picked someone who was high profile as a smokescreen to hide behind. Look, the second we start ruling people out, those are the people the EW will pick. Trust me on that one- I was there. Let's not make the choice any easier for her. Trying to avoid the GW was only one of concerns, and it was more from the fact that I'd be discovered by him if we scried the same person at the same time. He was theonly one who could stop me, and so he was the only one I feared. That is no longer a problem.

When I was the EW, I picked wolves from all over. I had high profile wolves, I had under-the-radar wolves, I had wolves that I planned to sacrifice. I'm trying to share what I learned from my experience with the village. Never rule anyone out as a potential wolf, and no one except the GW is a known innocent until they're dead.

Originally Posted by Cailin

Rikae: Too argumentative. Will make enemies. Enemies with pitchforks.

Roa_Aoife: See Rikae. It’s a family thing.

Again, I don't think anyone should be ruled out, but this made me giggle all over.

Originally Posted by Cailin

At this point, I think our best chances as a village lie with the scrying and seering. The usual daytime teamwork patterns can't be counted upon as a way to look for evil since there's no way to know if the wolves know each other's identities - and I would doubt that at this early point that they would as there's too much chance of flux from one side to the other. By the same token, it's high unlikely that they know the EW's identity. And other sneaky behaviors can't even be counted on because the wolves are perfectly replaceable while the village is still this large, and for all we know might be out there as cannon fodder to distract and confuse the search for the EW, who's really the one that has to be discovered to stabilize the werewolf population flux and make it possible for the village to be victorious.

I find any post that says, "Oh we can't find the werewolves, best not to try" to be not only flawed but suspicious. Wolves still lie. They still misdirect. They are still trying to kill the village. Cailin's post here echoes the post by phantom (not his first) that really sounded off my warning bells. Why, exactly, should the wolves being replaceable decrease the usual sneaky behaviors?

Tight now, I'm a little suspicious of the wafflers, "I think this, but I also think the opposite," but I haven't seen enough yet to form any hard opinions, so I'm not pointing them out (yet.)

Originally Posted by phantom

Bah! Why bother trying to find Wolves?

There aren't any!

At least, not what any of us would call Wolves.

In other villages the WWs work together and know their fellow pack members. In this village... well, honestly, there's no way the EW told all his WWs who he is and who their fellows are. That would be too risky.

Thus a "Wolf" is simply an Ordo who counts as a WW in the tally.

This post is both unhelpful and deeply flawed. It's basically telling us to ignore all methods for hunting wolves, even the ones that have nothing to do with connections, by suggesting that they won't work. This is misinformation, a common tactic used by werewolves. At least high profile illustrious werewolves.

I have to go (I'm late already) but I find the people who keep ruling out the "high profile" wolves to be suspicious, especially the ones who are conveniently high profile.

Edit: cross posted with legate onward

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

*whispers to himself, looking at Aganzir* Now I recall why I liked her... Oh my. She makes sense. She was always clever. Only she had to become such a hateful person...

Anyway, I guess I'm going to be off for a short while... but will return soon to see what's happened.

Sally, my dear, feel free to vote for Phantom, I am not going to blame you for that... although I probably won't stand by you in this decision, you must understand he has been my friend and business partner for too long... not to mention he is my cousin (well who isn't, right... apart from you maybe...). But as I said, at least for now, I won't even suspect him that much. I think he has always been like that...

Will be back.

It didn't seem very clear to me, Legate. It looks like an "I'm leaving" post, with a bit of support for Phantom thrown in, but by "feel free to vote", you seem to be subtly encouraging Sally. I suppose I could be delving a little too in-depth, but it's worth an eyebrow-raise, surely?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Phantom, are you going to post anything more of substance, or are you confining yourself to vote counts?

Edit: Dury, you look more Chaotic Neutral to me.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Not to start yet another, I’ve been mulling over Legate’s actions while I’ve been away. Don’t really want to vote for him, because I’d rather have a better case than to do such a thing rashly on the second Day, but his strange nature the past two Days has sparked my curiosity. Usually he only acts this way on the first Day, not nearly all the way through the second. Might just be playing WW with exams overhead (probably a similar why reason I’m so ‘serious’ right now and can’t think of anything besides them), but I’d rather ask why instead since I don’t like to assume.
Why are you acting more anxious than usual? Just curious.

May be a combination of several factors. Partially it may be the mood conjured by the exams (the time of relief after one completed with the anxiety of the view of other coming soon), and if you say I act more like first day, it may be also because I feel still like the first day - not very much idea of what's going on, who may be who; the more in such a big village. I can't concentrate on all - there are LOTS of people I hardly even noticed, or, noticed but could not reflect upon... and such. Something like that, probably.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

It didn't seem very clear to me, Legate. It looks like an "I'm leaving" post, with a bit of support for Phantom thrown in, but by "feel free to vote", you seem to be subtly encouraging Sally. I suppose I could be delving a little too in-depth, but it's worth an eyebrow-raise, surely?

No, it isn't. The statement "feel free to vote" is from both sides outlined by the words "Sally, my dear," and "I am not going to blame you for that". It's an, how do you call that gramatically, inserted sentence.

[Celuien]

And so ye candle maker arrives late... there's a new invention I've been working on - a candle that burns at both ends. Not quite perfected yet, but eventually I think it will work. And already so much to read. Which I haven't read. But will after adding a few rambling thoughts to the discussion.

At this point, I think our best chances as a village lie with the scrying and seering. The usual daytime teamwork patterns can't be counted upon as a way to look for evil since there's no way to know if the wolves know each other's identities - and I would doubt that at this early point that they would as there's too much chance of flux from one side to the other. By the same token, it's high unlikely that they know the EW's identity. And other sneaky behaviors can't even be counted on because the wolves are perfectly replaceable while the village is still this large, and for all we know might be out there as cannon fodder to distract and confuse the search for the EW, who's really the one that has to be discovered to stabilize the werewolf population flux and make it possible for the village to be victorious.

I guess there's one thing, though. I'm not going to go by werewolf lore too much of who makes a good what because I think it has distracted my ancestors too much in the past... and I think that there has been a long enough gap between my family's witnessing werewolf infestations to make that possible this time.

[THE Ka]

OKay, back for a little bit. Don't keep your hopes up, I'll be gone for the next few hours today with some freetime inbetween, though I'll be here before the deadline.

Originally Posted by Isabel

If a wolf is turned to an ordo, what reason would they have to keep whatever information they learned a secret? The same for an ordo>gifted>ordo>wolf?

Don't count me anywhere close to an 'expert' (and I repeat, don't... first time playing DW), but the reason I can see is fear of other wolves you don't yet know about attacking you that Night. Granted at that time the EW hasn't settled on letting all wolves know one another, just a few for strategic purposes. (If that happens, well great for us! Though, I don't think the EW would blunder that much).

Originally Posted by Lommy

Besides, there's just one EW but at least three wolves, so finding a wolf would be statictically easier for a dumb mob.

No offense taken, I'd rather hunt a wolf than end up dead or with any more wolves.

As well then, an EW would probably be more than delighted if we went on a wild chase after them with little to no knowledge, and left them to busily add to their werewolf collection in the meantime. Wolves on the other hand, even if they are not certain whom their fellows are, would probably 'join in' anyways for safety, with us being too concerned about how and whom the EW is.
So if anything, finding someone of the others is better than none.

That's all I can think of for now, hopefully I'll have time later to read more posts. Ta ta for now.

[Durelin]

Cailin's *if I were a Wizard cause I'm not* list is...odd. It seems like the biggest waste of time yet. Even if the EW thought, as Cailin suggested, that they should pick wolves from "among our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers"...her list really doesn't follow that, in my opinion. And that's all it is, opinion.

Originally Posted by Ka

Don't count me anywhere close to an 'expert' (and I repeat, don't... first time playing DW), but the reason I can see is fear of other wolves you don't yet know about attacking you that Night. Granted at that time the EW hasn't settled on letting all wolves know one another, just a few for strategic purposes. (If that happens, well great for us! Though, I don't think the EW would blunder that much).

Here's another point - if the EW loses a Wolf, I imagine they'll know about it, and they might set the lost Wolf as their remaining Wolves' target, mightn't they?

Anyway.

Ka seems to be playing up the "never played DW, not really sure what's going on" thing. (I mean, I'm hardly confident with all this, but...) Her posts have been rather boring. I'm used to them being a bit more interesting.

Sally's use of the diminutive 'Durie' makes me cringe. Her ridiculously easy vote for phantom causes considerable discomfort. And I agree with Aganzir that she seems to be playing nicely and carefully. In other words she's boring atm.

But, maybe Roa and phantom are wolves together and just don't know it, cause that would be funnnn.

Aganzir bothers me and I don't know why. For one thing, I don't know how she feels comfortable saying much of anything about Isabel. One post, with in-character banter, repeating a bunch of things already said (basically summarizing the whole Roa v. phantom and discussion proceeding from that), and asking one question, also related to the EW and wolves discussion. Hmm, I will definitely be looking at Isabel more...

Is Aganzir the first to suggest that the phantom is a bluffing-like-crazy EW? (morm mentioned that he thinks the phantom probably wouldn't be picked as a wolf early on but could be the EW, but that hardly strikes the same chord.) Well, doesn't matter if she's first. I just find myself uncomfortable with anyone making that suggestion because it's so...easy. I mean, it's the phantom. It's the phantom who's begging for attention. phantom to Evil Wizard...not much of a stretch.

On the other hand, though, I'm for some reason prepared to believe Cailin would post her 'list o' possible wolf choices' even as the EW...a little. So maybe I'm being stupid (or biased...never trusted my mother)... Certainly I am clueless.

< / rambling >

Edit: Crossed with Gwath and Roa.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

although, you'd better stay away from my girlfriend, okay? If you have any problems, it's no longer my concern!

I'm just happy to see her kill you some night then!

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

I specifically said that I did NOT mean we shouldn't look for wolves. Don't twist my words, dearest sister-in-law to be.

Yes you said, but the rest of your post looked like how I interpreted it.

Originally Posted by Durelin

Here's another point - if the EW loses a Wolf, I imagine they'll know about it, and they might set the lost Wolf as their remaining Wolves' target, mightn't they?

Yes. But even then there's a possibility that the ranger's protecting the ex-wolf in question - the GW certainly wouldn't want to lose someone who might know a great deal of the evil team's plans.

Originally Posted by Durelin

For one thing, I don't know how she feels comfortable saying much of anything about Isabel.

To be honest I didn't quite even realise she had just one post, but the way it was written looked innocent to me. Surely you aren't assuming I will think so for the rest of the game?
I think you're pretty much grasping at straws there.

Originally Posted by Durelin

Well, doesn't matter if she's first. I just find myself uncomfortable with anyone making that suggestion because it's so...easy. I mean, it's the phantom. It's the phantom who's begging for attention. phantom to Evil Wizard...not much of a stretch.

I've never played with the phantom before I think. But I tend to think everyone should say what they see, and if he looks like a possible EW I rather say it aloud.

[Macalaure]

Thank you for liking me, Legate, and apologies for not being able to return that sentiment.

I'm aware that I need to be careful not to suspect people solely for agreeing with Roa. However, the way you emphasize her point that we just can't know anything about who the wizard might be or who he could have picked is suspicious to me.

Originally Posted by Legate

I am not sure about tp. If you ask what they fed him, I would guess they fed him cobblers - but that's (fortunately) impossible.

You simply discard an opinion which you do not share (I only guess so, since you don't address tp's points directly) as cobblery? Very hasty, my friend - demagogic even, if one looks at it ill-meaningly. Some elaboration?

Originally Posted by Legate

Even though someone mentioned the possibility of Wolves given suicidal tasks here, it is still a loss for the EW if a wolf is lynched; she cannot win that way.

I didn't say that. Of course it is still a loss, but not as fatal as in a regular village. Are their tasks suicidal? Unlikely. But he can afford to give tasks which are a little more risky. Sacrificing a wolf for the sake of surviving for one more day himself makes absolute sense to him, for example.


Like: Aganzir, Kitanna, phantom, morm

Some like: Volo, Ka, Sally, Isabellkya, Lommy, Durelin

Only a little like: Lhuna, A Little Green

Not very much like: Shasta (shady agreement with Roa), Cailin (really not sure what to make of her list), Legate

No like: Roa (what I said earlier, plus a simple very bad hunch I got from her last post)

Really not sure: Brinniel, Lalaith, Gwath, Rikae, Celuien, Kath

Still asleep: Nilp, Eonwe, Diamond, Nerwen, McCaber.


PS: Roa, you mixed up my quotes and morm's.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

You simply discard an opinion which you do not share (I only guess so, since you don't address tp's points directly) as cobblery? Very hasty, my friend - demagogic even, if one looks at it ill-meaningly. Some elaboration?

Not sure if I got what in particular you, how to call that, accuse me of, so I will explain what I meant by this: I meant that I don't think phantom would be a wolf, but he could as well be a cobbler given his behavior. However, as no cobblers are in this game, he obviously isn't one. Then, as you read my posts later, going along these lines, my conclusion was that he is probably ordo.

Originally Posted by Uncle Mac

I didn't say that. Of course it is still a loss, but not as fatal as in a regular village. Are their tasks suicidal? Unlikely. But he can afford to give tasks which are a little more risky. Sacrificing a wolf for the sake of surviving for one more day himself makes absolute sense to him, for example.

Of course. But the combination of words"they could have the additional task to divert our eyes from the EW" and immediately following "the wolves can be remade, the loss of one is not as crucial as it is in a regular village", obviously conjures in one's mind the idea of a wolf stepping forward into the village's discussion in order to turn the suspicion on himself and not the EW.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think you're pretty much grasping at straws there.

It's clutching. But really, I think you are, too/being defensive. Or maybe you're just frustrated cause you really think I'm an idiot. My argument wasn't just "Isabel's only posted once, Aganzir determines she is innocent, thus Aganzir doesn't look innocent." I didn't take up a whole paragraph just to say that. You make me uncomfortable. I don't know why. Have I played with you before? It shouldn't matter, but...yeah, it probably does.

Edit: Response to Cailin's posty: Uh...reach a consensus? You never reach a consensus in these games, and you never should! Why? Because we're not all on the same side! Also, there is no possible way I am ever compromising. That's what I hate perhaps the most about this game - people always compromising about who to vote for. "Eh, they're not really all that guilty, but it doesn't look like anyone's going to vote for who I really think is guilty, so I'm going to just contribute a useless vote and maybe get lucky."

[Nerwen]

Hello, my friends and relations (most of you are both, come to think of it). I'm so sorry to have deserted our afflicted village in its hour of need. I have been gathering herbs to ease the pain of my brother's death. Like to try some, anyone? No?

For a while, now, I have been standing aside, listening to what others have to say. Which has been as follows:

1. We should try and lynch wolves.

2. No, we should try and lynch the Evil Wizard.

3. No, we should try and lynch them both.

People seem much more reluctant to put forward any method of achieving any of these goals. The only suggestions I've heard have been, "Guess on basis of personality" and, "Lynch people until we find some wolves, and then we'll know who picked them". I don't find either of these plans appealing (as a healer, I shrink from unnecessary bloodshed).

As has been pointed out (much) more than once, we cannot count on spotting wolf interactions, since the wolves may not know who each other are. I don't see why this is such an issue. My training in healing touched on the unpleasant subject of lycanthropy. According to the ancient lore passed on to me from the earliest times, werewolves often don't show much in the way of pack behaviour on Day 1 anyway... but there are other ways in which they may reveal their beastly nature.

Some of them have been known to use diversionary tactics such as

1. Starting/continuing pointless debates

2. Making lots of "empty" posts full of banter or non-specific general statements that seem helpful but aren't when you look at them closely

3. Repeating what other people have said already.

The only problem is that there's been so much of that toDay, it's hard to know where to start.

Edit: X'd since Legate at #77.

[Nerwen]

A thought:

According to the ancient knowledge that has been passed down to me through untold generations of healers, the person sacrificed on Day 1 is usually an innocent– but his or her death is not always in vain, since it may cause the wolves to give themselves away.

Unfortunately, if the wolves don't know each others' identities (or that of the EW), the voting pattern may not help much toMorrow. I'd expect the wolves to be much less ready to jump on the nearest bandwagon than usual.

On the other hand, if they do know each others' identities, all these suggestions to the contrary could be just an attempt to plant a meme in our heads, so we'll ignore the evidence. Okay, maybe that's farfetched, but strange things happen in WW.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

The only problem is that there's been so much of that toDay, it's hard to know where to start.

That was Nogrod's original idea.

Greenie's (although I liked calling her Lily) post looks wrong. What she says there is that tp is a Gifted or the GW as if he's not the EW or a Wolf but is neither a normal villager-- And I think such things shouldn't be said aloud! I find such kind of posts suspicious.

Aganzir on the other hand feels more Innocent than usually, though a bit nastier and funnier. I'm not completely sure, but her posts #68 and #75 look quite sincere.

Which brings to Sally and her vote. It looks quite nasty as it comes right after Aganzir's accusation of tp. It's an easy vote, but I won't vote her for just that.

Myself, I find tp a more evil (not meaning he's a more likely Baddie) Fea at the moment. I haven't played with him before, but there's the same quite alarming "don't care" attitude like with Fea, especially when she was a Wolf.

I'm also slightly uneasy about Celuien and Cailín, I can't really say what it is, the way they have phraised their posts or their attitude (mainly Celuien's). I agree with both to some point, but, but, but.

Ok, nothing really decisive from me at the moment.

edit: Xd with Nerwen

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Mac

I'm not sure what's worse: Volo making a statement that can be read as a wolf slip (but I remember an ancestor of him making a wolf slip while being innocent, too ), or A Little Green pointing out the quote - without any opinion of her own - in order to have the mob feast on it while keeping her own hands clean.

Now, son, I didn't (or don't) know what to think about it myself. I felt the need to point it out in case someone else could read something from it. I didn't find it necessary to say "I don't know what to say about it" or "it could be a slip or it could not or... etc".

Originally Posted by Volo

Greenie's (although I liked calling her Lily) post looks wrong. What she says there is that tp is a Gifted or the GW as if he's not the EW or a Wolf but is neither a normal villager-- And I think such things shouldn't be said aloud! I find such kind of posts suspicious.

Actually I never thought he might be the GW or a gifted... To me he feels like neither. (And feel free to call me Lily if it suits you better. I like both. )

Sally and Gwath's votes both made me fairly uneasy, though for different reasons. Sally's, like someone said, looked a bit too easy. Gwath's I don't like because voting without stating any reasons for the choice is both unhelpful (if having suspicions about someone, one should at least reason them a bit if he really wants that one lynched) and irritating and never fails to make me suspicious.

I read Gwath's posts. Maybe I'm slow but I only just realised that he not only voted without stating a reason but also said

Originally Posted by Gwathie

No, I'm not saying "don't look for wolves." But I do think most of our energy should be directed towards tracking down the EW. In my opinion.

Besides my disagreement with his opinion, I don't like the way he states it. The addition of the "In my opinion" to the end feels pointless to me in every other sense than in a looking nice -sense which looks fishy. So, all in all, Gwath looks pretty bad to me at the moment.

Other than that, this debate leaves me quite baffled so that's all from me at the moment. I'll let Lommy post now and meanwhile try to gather some more substance.


EDIT: x-ed with 1 x Volo

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Celuien

The usual daytime teamwork patterns can't be counted upon as a way to look for evil since there's no way to know if the wolves know each other's identities - and I would doubt that at this early point that they would as there's too much chance of flux from one side to the other.

Okay, so what do you suggest?
I can agree that not much that is apparent is going to be done the first day, though whatever if anything is done toDay will be extremely helpful later on. I don't think in the recorded history of WW on the Downs a village has caught more than one wolf on the first day, or any 'big' scheme of theirs in one swoop.
If that was happening, I'd seriously look into having telepathic devices implanted into my brain.
Though, I don't think it would be smart to just sit around and wait to be eaten, or wait a few days before trying anything. Mistakes happen, you learn from them, and you play on.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'd expect the wolves to be much less ready to jump on the nearest bandwagon than usual.

If they did, that would be an amazing second Day... Wishful thinking, sorry.

Originally Posted by Durelin

Her posts have been rather boring. I'm used to them being a bit more interesting.

I know, but sorry dear I'm just not in my groove today or toDay. Finals week is nigh and I couldn't think a bit of wit to save my life. I'm trying though, to break off the tunnel vision of 'oh wow, I think I've seriously overestimated my abilities and schedule'.

Originally Posted by Agan

Ka, because she's always evil.

Oh pish, seriously as I've said before, that last game was pure luck. Look at me now, I have the memory of a vegetable.

As for you, I see you're acting your usual self, and no I'm not going to wholly trust you either. Even if you are family. I'm watching you too.

Originally Posted by Agan

Quite honestly, I assume the wizards have played enough so that they have at least some kind of ideas about what the players are like.

Okay, now that I can agree with you dear sister. If anything I doubt the wizards will invest too much of their time with depending on lists, and instead see how others are bandwagoning with them/reacting. Lists, as statistics are too easily subject to personal whim. A wolf or a gifted could use lists as easily as their wizards to get a point across.
Meaning, we need to remember that a gifted or a wolf is given a task of any sort, though how they reach them could be a number of ways. The wizards just want to see their goals met with as little loss or consequences.

Originally Posted by Durelin

It's the phantom who's begging for attention. phantom to Evil Wizard...not much of a stretch.

I thought tp always wants attention?

I don't have much of a grounded suspicion on anyone yet, but tp's personality doesn't strike me as an immediate suspicion for EW, let alone wolf. I'd rather be more concerned if he was having mutliple personalities in his posts, or acting extremely skitterish in his reasoning.
This is from only what I know of his nature outside of WW, since I believe this is the first time I've played a game with tp in it.

((Going to be gone for another hour or so, but back in time for the deadline. Sorry for the shoddy schedule and boring posts everyone.))

[Cailín]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hello, my friends and relations (most of you are both, come to think of it). I'm so sorry to have deserted our afflicted village in its hour of need. I have been gathering herbs to ease the pain of my brother's death. Like to try some, anyone? No?

For a while, now, I have been standing aside, listening to what others have to say. Which has been as follows:

1. We should try and lynch wolves.

2. No, we should try and lynch the Evil Wizard.

3. No, we should try and lynch them both.

People seem much more reluctant to put forward any method of achieving any of these goals. The only suggestions I've heard have been, "Guess on basis of personality" and, "Lynch people until we find some wolves, and then we'll know who picked them". I don't find either of these plans appealing (as a healer, I shrink from unnecessary bloodshed).

As has been pointed out (much) more than once, we cannot count on spotting wolf interactions, since the wolves may not know who each other are. I don't see why this is such an issue. My training in healing touched on the unpleasant subject of lycanthropy. According to the ancient lore passed on to me from the earliest times, werewolves often don't show much in the way of pack behaviour on Day 1 anyway... but there are other ways in which they may reveal their beastly nature.

Some of them have been known to use diversionary tactics such as

1. Starting/continuing pointless debates

2. Making lots of "empty" posts full of banter or non-specific general statements that seem helpful but aren't when you look at them closely

3. Repeating what other people have said already.

The only problem is that there's been so much of that toDay, it's hard to know where to start.

Edit: X'd since Legate at #77.

This is a very suspicious first post. Nerwen takes a long time to do nothing but criticise other people's ideas and post signs indicating potential wolvish behaviour. She's also giving wolves a nice guide on how not to act. I can't see what she hopes to achieve with this, other than to look helpful and serious in the eyes of the casual reader.



Cross-posted with Nerwen and others. Nerwen finds my methods ''pointless'' and possibly distracting.

[Cailín]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Cailin's *if I were a Wizard cause I'm not* list is...odd. It seems like the biggest waste of time yet. Even if the EW thought, as Cailin suggested, that they should pick wolves from "among our less famous, vocal and illustrous villagers"...her list really doesn't follow that, in my opinion. And that's all it is, opinion.

Of course, it's opinion. If we all pitch in with our opinions then perhaps we shall reach a consensus.

The difference between this WW game and others is that there is a substantially smaller degree of randomness here. When we talk of who would apply to be a wizard, or who a wizard would want as a wolf, or as a gifted, we are dealing with probabilities, however slight.

And on Day 1, when we have almost nothing to do but sift through roleplaying posts and criticise others for not being helpful, I believe it can be worthwhile to speculate.

[McCaber]

Well, I'm here. Lamentations about uncle Noggie and that other guy, etc. Aganzir, my love, we'll get through this just fine.

Now, to business. Right now, the phantom looks innocent to me. sally is slightly worrying, as is Cailin. I'll be back with some more solid info, but that'll have to do for now.

[Thinlómien]

There have been points against Gwathagor and I have to admit they make sense. However, Gwath has been a wolf so often of late that I would really not prefer suspecting him yet. (I know, this is rather unreasonable. And contradictory too, for - I won't start this, don't be afraid - I would indeed have picked him if I were the EW.)

Originally Posted by Legate

I don't like this that much. Not sure why, but following someone with a suspicion like that... my dear sally does not seem suspicious in any way, she is behaving like she's always, and also she simply voted and that's it. Nothing weird there.

Well, young man, they say that love makes even the wisest of us blind and my daughter is an attractive girl (of course she is: she has her mother's genes), so I won't blame you.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Well you're right there - at least that's what I did in Volo's game. But that argument doesn't quite apply to here - the wolves just can't play the way they'd like. If they don't know the EW's identity, they have to be careful not to accidentally accuse her.

Well, not exactly. I trust the wolves to trust the EW to be resourceful enough to overcome such minor things.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Can you elaborate what you mean by that?

If you take it out of the context it does seem quite silly, but I was merely continuing on the trail of thought I had started before. I simply meant that you seem so reckless that you're not concerned about flushing anyone - gifteds included - out, while normally innocent people avoid that.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Assumption: Brinn is a wolf. She doesn't know her fellows, and she's afraid she would slip it later. She says her opinion is that the wolves probably don't know one other, and therefore she knows there cannot be connections between them. Now it's clear for everyone that it's her opinion, and she won't be questioned later if she speaks like the wolves didn't know one another for sure.
And that comment looks plain fishy.
Got it?

Well, that's what I thought you meant but it makes little sense to me. Rather far-fetched, I should say. Why would anything like that occur to anyone?

I can somewhat second Rikae's submarine-suggestion. If I don't have suspicions by the time the deadline comes/ I go to sleep (whichever takes place first), I will vote a submarine. Sadly, it's a difficult job to figure who's one.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Suppose that one of our extremely busy members is actually not that busy and has been lying through their teeth on the admin thread this whole time.

It's utterly useless to speculate about that. I prefer to trust that no one lies on the admin thread. If they do and win based on that, shame on them. They cheated. Enough said.

Originally Posted by Cailín

About the phantom: he seems merely to be playing with the dynamics of this game. Because of the uncertainty whether one will wake up on the same side tomorrow as one is today, he has interpreted the role of villager as neutral rather than on the side of good. All this boy needs is a little direction.

Now that was a good analyse. Sadly, it points exactly why I have an urge to get rid of him. I distrust him, even though I'm kind of assuming he's on the same side with me. He's just plain confusing, and just see what he's trying to start now, at this phase of the Day: another would-be debate about whether the EW told the wolves one another's identities. Really makes me want to murder him.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Looking at Mac's list, it seems to me that he is quietly suspicious of everyone who wanted to look for the wolves first; "Only a little like" (Lhuna), "Not very much like" (me, Cailin), "No like" (Roa), "Really not sure" (Brinn).

I was starting to say that that's not really suspicious as people tend to suspect people who disagree with them, but then I remembered that Mac didn't clearly disagree with those people. Very interesting. But anyhow, I doubt Mac-wolf would do something that transparent...


edit: xed with #138 and everything after it...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Aganzir, I love you! If I wasn't taken already, I'd be in line with your suitors. That's what I've been thinking all along. Thank you for putting it into clearer words.

I am flattered. Anyway, glad to be of some help.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well, that's what I thought you meant but it makes little sense to me. Rather far-fetched, I should say. Why would anything like that occur to anyone?

I don't know. Maybe because it looks like that.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

And am I right in thinking that the only ones left to post are Di and Nilp?

Yes.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Does everyone understand that point and agree with it?

Makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Volo

At points I'm not sure whether she's joking or not, and that I regard dangerous, because she can always decide later which way she meant it. Ok - maybe I'm only complaining that she's joking at all as I'm refering to her suspicions in #68.

If you can't figure out whether I'm serious or not, I'm most likely joking.

edit: xed with Greenie and Volo

[Aganzir]

A thing I was to say already in my last post but forgot.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Sadly, it points exactly why I have an urge to get rid of him. I distrust him, even though I'm kind of assuming he's on the same side with me.

I feel uneasy how Lommy keeps using the term "same side". She did it also earlier, in #90

Originally Posted by Lommy

But if we better wolf candidates, I'm all for keeping her as she's quite sharp and can benefit us as much as her own team.

Makes me wonder whether Lommy is a wolf trying to find her pack the EW didn't reveal her.

And if there was a list of non-wolves and my name was on it, it would explain her attacks against me. I wouldn't put it past her to try to find her fellows like that.

edit: xed since m'dear McC