The Barrow-Downs? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

MatthewM · 06-11-2008, 12:55 PM

I didn't read the thread, but let me tell you that the Hobbit's journey from Crickhollow to the Barrow-Downs is truly one of the reasons why I love Tolkien. That is how powerful those chapters are, for me.

alatar · 06-11-2008, 01:08 PM

And you get that gem of an insight into the character of Frodo (and the others on the Good side). In the Barrow, Frodo could have left his friends for dead, and the Wise would (maybe) have agreed with the sacrifice, but in the end, Frodo chose to stay and fight the darkness.

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 06-12-2008, 12:00 AM

Surely Ol' Merry Fello deserved better than to be written off as a writer's block?!? I, for one, loved the chapter where Ol' Tom sank the barrow outta our very own barrow wight, sending him packing outta the place. (And he had to bring a present to his missue, the rogue.)

Yep, LoTR is a combo of fairy tale and make-over history. And as with all histories, there would be some talk of developments (city building, mithril mining, wheels and chimneys, fireworks). But the light-hearted flowery side of the book prevented it from being turned into your average block-buster, but something more akin to works of art. I confess that I am no connoisseur of English literature, but take away the Old Forest, Barrows and Ol' Tom, and I'd find the book more like fantasy-science fiction.

In fact, the scientists in all of us often pop out and stare skeptically at the mention of "magical power" and "magic". (The more militant of our scientists had screamed witchcraft) The absurdity in Ol' Tom and Co. is in fact a necessity to keep us all from reading the lines too scientifically, though I must admit that the existence of bio-engineering technology remained one of the unequivocal facts of Middle-Earth...

"An orc may be educated." - except from The Island of Doctor Morgoth

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-12-2008, 05:58 AM

Thanks for that observation, HCNL Hobbit. I gnash my teeth every time I hear the replay of PJ claiming these chapters had to go because "they don't advance the plot." Grrrr.

Rikae · 06-12-2008, 10:29 AM

My thoughts on this are not completely fleshed out, but I have to say, first of all, why ask about this section? As Legate pointed out as well, there are plenty of other passages the book could have "lived without". Have the movies become the "norm", then, from which the book deviates, rather than the other way around? If so, I find that sad.

Anyway, for me these sections of the book (and also the scouring of the shire) are part of what set it above a mere adventure story. It's here that we begin to see glimpses of a larger world - other battles, older beings, different ways of living and characters unconcerned with the quest at hand make the story richer, and link it to Tolkien's other works, as well (it is not just a story, but part of a world). The Old Forest/Tom/Barrow-Downs section also serves as a transition between the more... I don't know, childlike? homely? world of the Shire to the epic one of the elves, Gondor, etc. - a contrast which is a large part of the delight of the books, for me, and which requires some sort of transitional episode. This, of course, does not even include the value of these sections in their own right. I doubt LoTR would have the same importance to me without them.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 06-13-2008, 12:41 PM

We weren't saying that the book doesn't need these chapters, but what would it be like to not have them or if they were different in some way. I personally think that the Old Forest and everything that happened there is a very good part of the story which takes the book out of the ordinary and makes it so great, because the hobbits are still going forward in their quest, but it takes them into a miniature adventure, which is almost my favourite part of Tolkiens works!

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 06-14-2008, 05:58 AM

Tom really made for a more homely (gossipy) settings fitting in the atmosphere of the Shire. And it was really one of those things that endeared me to the early chapters, and thus magnified the horrors revealed during the Scouring of the Shire.

In fact, it seemed really a habit of J. R. R. T. to start a grand adventure by first creating a merrily magical setting. Just compare Ol' Tom with the entry of the dwarves in The Hobbit! And The Hobbit is not just some kiddy book, ending with a war and some sacrifice of heroes. Why shouldn't we treat the LOTR in the same manner?

06-11-2008, 12:55 PM	#1
MatthewM Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 628	I didn't read the thread, but let me tell you that the Hobbit's journey from Crickhollow to the Barrow-Downs is truly one of the reasons why I love Tolkien. That is how powerful those chapters are, for me. __________________ "Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring

06-11-2008, 01:08 PM	#2
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	And you get that gem of an insight into the character of Frodo (and the others on the Good side). In the Barrow, Frodo could have left his friends for dead, and the Wise would (maybe) have agreed with the sacrifice, but in the end, Frodo chose to stay and fight the darkness. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

06-12-2008, 12:00 AM	#3
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Science and History vs Folklore Surely Ol' Merry Fello deserved better than to be written off as a writer's block?!? I, for one, loved the chapter where Ol' Tom sank the barrow outta our very own barrow wight, sending him packing outta the place. (And he had to bring a present to his missue, the rogue.) Yep, LoTR is a combo of fairy tale and make-over history. And as with all histories, there would be some talk of developments (city building, mithril mining, wheels and chimneys, fireworks). But the light-hearted flowery side of the book prevented it from being turned into your average block-buster, but something more akin to works of art. I confess that I am no connoisseur of English literature, but take away the Old Forest, Barrows and Ol' Tom, and I'd find the book more like fantasy-science fiction. In fact, the scientists in all of us often pop out and stare skeptically at the mention of "magical power" and "magic". (The more militant of our scientists had screamed witchcraft) The absurdity in Ol' Tom and Co. is in fact a necessity to keep us all from reading the lines too scientifically, though I must admit that the existence of bio-engineering technology remained one of the unequivocal facts of Middle-Earth... "An orc may be educated." - except from The Island of Doctor Morgoth __________________ 'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.'

06-12-2008, 05:58 AM	#4
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Thanks for that observation, HCNL Hobbit. I gnash my teeth every time I hear the replay of PJ claiming these chapters had to go because "they don't advance the plot." Grrrr. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

06-13-2008, 12:41 PM	#6
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	We weren't saying that the book doesn't need these chapters, but what would it be like to not have them or if they were different in some way. I personally think that the Old Forest and everything that happened there is a very good part of the story which takes the book out of the ordinary and makes it so great, because the hobbits are still going forward in their quest, but it takes them into a miniature adventure, which is almost my favourite part of Tolkiens works! __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

06-12-2008, 10:29 AM	#5
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	My thoughts on this are not completely fleshed out, but I have to say, first of all, why ask about this section? As Legate pointed out as well, there are plenty of other passages the book could have "lived without". Have the movies become the "norm", then, from which the book deviates, rather than the other way around? If so, I find that sad. Anyway, for me these sections of the book (and also the scouring of the shire) are part of what set it above a mere adventure story. It's here that we begin to see glimpses of a larger world - other battles, older beings, different ways of living and characters unconcerned with the quest at hand make the story richer, and link it to Tolkien's other works, as well (it is not just a story, but part of a world). The Old Forest/Tom/Barrow-Downs section also serves as a transition between the more... I don't know, childlike? homely? world of the Shire to the epic one of the elves, Gondor, etc. - a contrast which is a large part of the delight of the books, for me, and which requires some sort of transitional episode. This, of course, does not even include the value of these sections in their own right. I doubt LoTR would have the same importance to me without them.

06-14-2008, 05:58 AM	#7
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Bumpkin land Tom really made for a more homely (gossipy) settings fitting in the atmosphere of the Shire. And it was really one of those things that endeared me to the early chapters, and thus magnified the horrors revealed during the Scouring of the Shire. In fact, it seemed really a habit of J. R. R. T. to start a grand adventure by first creating a merrily magical setting. Just compare Ol' Tom with the entry of the dwarves in The Hobbit! And The Hobbit is not just some kiddy book, ending with a war and some sacrifice of heroes. Why shouldn't we treat the LOTR in the same manner? __________________ 'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.'