The Barrow-Downs? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-12-2008, 05:58 AM

Thanks for that observation, HCNL Hobbit. I gnash my teeth every time I hear the replay of PJ claiming these chapters had to go because "they don't advance the plot." Grrrr.

Rikae · 06-12-2008, 10:29 AM

My thoughts on this are not completely fleshed out, but I have to say, first of all, why ask about this section? As Legate pointed out as well, there are plenty of other passages the book could have "lived without". Have the movies become the "norm", then, from which the book deviates, rather than the other way around? If so, I find that sad.

Anyway, for me these sections of the book (and also the scouring of the shire) are part of what set it above a mere adventure story. It's here that we begin to see glimpses of a larger world - other battles, older beings, different ways of living and characters unconcerned with the quest at hand make the story richer, and link it to Tolkien's other works, as well (it is not just a story, but part of a world). The Old Forest/Tom/Barrow-Downs section also serves as a transition between the more... I don't know, childlike? homely? world of the Shire to the epic one of the elves, Gondor, etc. - a contrast which is a large part of the delight of the books, for me, and which requires some sort of transitional episode. This, of course, does not even include the value of these sections in their own right. I doubt LoTR would have the same importance to me without them.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 06-13-2008, 12:41 PM

We weren't saying that the book doesn't need these chapters, but what would it be like to not have them or if they were different in some way. I personally think that the Old Forest and everything that happened there is a very good part of the story which takes the book out of the ordinary and makes it so great, because the hobbits are still going forward in their quest, but it takes them into a miniature adventure, which is almost my favourite part of Tolkiens works!

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 06-14-2008, 05:58 AM

Tom really made for a more homely (gossipy) settings fitting in the atmosphere of the Shire. And it was really one of those things that endeared me to the early chapters, and thus magnified the horrors revealed during the Scouring of the Shire.

In fact, it seemed really a habit of J. R. R. T. to start a grand adventure by first creating a merrily magical setting. Just compare Ol' Tom with the entry of the dwarves in The Hobbit! And The Hobbit is not just some kiddy book, ending with a war and some sacrifice of heroes. Why shouldn't we treat the LOTR in the same manner?

MatthewM · 06-14-2008, 10:58 AM

I will add on a little to what I said in my earlier post.

These chapters, The Old Forest-Tom Bombadil-The Barrow-Downs, are truly amazing and almost magical. I count them as one of my favorite parts in The Lord of the Rings. I believe that these chapters are a major part of what glued me to Tolkien when I first started reading the book.

With Tolkien, it is like you're actually reading history that happened in a time long forgotten. These chapters amplify that feeling, for me, and I actually feel the lingering fear of The Old Forest, the comfort of Tom's House and mysticism of Goldberry, and the dread that is the Barrow-Downs...these chapters are monumental.

Rikae · 06-14-2008, 12:21 PM

I thought I'd add something, too. To me, Tom has always somehow represented the power of all that is good in the hobbits - the quality that made them able to do what more powerful, wiser beings could not. He embodies the joy, simplicity, humility and closeness to the earth - the "groundedness", which the hobbits at their best also have, and which seems to give them their unexpected strength. When we see Tom triumph over Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wight, it echoes the hobbits' eventual triumph over their adversaries - and the loyalty they show to each other when faced with these dangers also gives an inkling of the source of their strength. Think of the way the memory of the Shire strengthens the hobbits later in the tale, in "dark places" - this simple, humble sort of happiness gives them courage and ability to resist the ring. It seems that Tolkien is setting up Tom's (and the hobbits'?) kind of power as different from, and in some ways stronger than the power of men, wizards, elves, etc. in opposing evil (or at least, less prone to corruption).

MatthewM · 06-14-2008, 05:03 PM

Rikae - I never thought of that. Very interesting!

06-12-2008, 05:58 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Thanks for that observation, HCNL Hobbit. I gnash my teeth every time I hear the replay of PJ claiming these chapters had to go because "they don't advance the plot." Grrrr. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

06-13-2008, 12:41 PM	#3
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	We weren't saying that the book doesn't need these chapters, but what would it be like to not have them or if they were different in some way. I personally think that the Old Forest and everything that happened there is a very good part of the story which takes the book out of the ordinary and makes it so great, because the hobbits are still going forward in their quest, but it takes them into a miniature adventure, which is almost my favourite part of Tolkiens works! __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

06-14-2008, 05:58 AM	#4
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Bumpkin land Tom really made for a more homely (gossipy) settings fitting in the atmosphere of the Shire. And it was really one of those things that endeared me to the early chapters, and thus magnified the horrors revealed during the Scouring of the Shire. In fact, it seemed really a habit of J. R. R. T. to start a grand adventure by first creating a merrily magical setting. Just compare Ol' Tom with the entry of the dwarves in The Hobbit! And The Hobbit is not just some kiddy book, ending with a war and some sacrifice of heroes. Why shouldn't we treat the LOTR in the same manner? __________________ 'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.'

06-14-2008, 10:58 AM	#5
MatthewM Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 628	I will add on a little to what I said in my earlier post. These chapters, The Old Forest-Tom Bombadil-The Barrow-Downs, are truly amazing and almost magical. I count them as one of my favorite parts in The Lord of the Rings. I believe that these chapters are a major part of what glued me to Tolkien when I first started reading the book. With Tolkien, it is like you're actually reading history that happened in a time long forgotten. These chapters amplify that feeling, for me, and I actually feel the lingering fear of The Old Forest, the comfort of Tom's House and mysticism of Goldberry, and the dread that is the Barrow-Downs...these chapters are monumental. __________________ "Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring

06-14-2008, 05:03 PM	#7
MatthewM Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Posts: 628	Rikae - I never thought of that. Very interesting! __________________ "Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring

06-12-2008, 10:29 AM	#2
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	My thoughts on this are not completely fleshed out, but I have to say, first of all, why ask about this section? As Legate pointed out as well, there are plenty of other passages the book could have "lived without". Have the movies become the "norm", then, from which the book deviates, rather than the other way around? If so, I find that sad. Anyway, for me these sections of the book (and also the scouring of the shire) are part of what set it above a mere adventure story. It's here that we begin to see glimpses of a larger world - other battles, older beings, different ways of living and characters unconcerned with the quest at hand make the story richer, and link it to Tolkien's other works, as well (it is not just a story, but part of a world). The Old Forest/Tom/Barrow-Downs section also serves as a transition between the more... I don't know, childlike? homely? world of the Shire to the epic one of the elves, Gondor, etc. - a contrast which is a large part of the delight of the books, for me, and which requires some sort of transitional episode. This, of course, does not even include the value of these sections in their own right. I doubt LoTR would have the same importance to me without them.

06-14-2008, 12:21 PM	#6
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	I thought I'd add something, too. To me, Tom has always somehow represented the power of all that is good in the hobbits - the quality that made them able to do what more powerful, wiser beings could not. He embodies the joy, simplicity, humility and closeness to the earth - the "groundedness", which the hobbits at their best also have, and which seems to give them their unexpected strength. When we see Tom triumph over Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wight, it echoes the hobbits' eventual triumph over their adversaries - and the loyalty they show to each other when faced with these dangers also gives an inkling of the source of their strength. Think of the way the memory of the Shire strengthens the hobbits later in the tale, in "dark places" - this simple, humble sort of happiness gives them courage and ability to resist the ring. It seems that Tolkien is setting up Tom's (and the hobbits'?) kind of power as different from, and in some ways stronger than the power of men, wizards, elves, etc. in opposing evil (or at least, less prone to corruption).