Ar-Pharazon and the separation of Valanor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morthoron · 06-24-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hot, crispy nice hobbit

Back to the topic, Ar-Pharazôn and his army may have faded like the Ringwraiths. Or died and became ghosts like the Ghost Army. It's also possible that they're still alive though, since they'd set foot on the "Undying" Lands.

Tolkien was quite implicit in his letters that merely being in Valinor does not confer immortality (the inhabitants, the Elves, Maiar and Valar were immortal in the first place). Frodo and Bilbo certainly died after a period of time living in Aman. The 'Caves of the Forgotten' implies a purgatory or limbo where spirits reside until the end of time. So, I would say the Numenorean army did indeed die, and their spirits will rise again for the Middle-earth version of Ragnarok (where dead folks like Turin will join in the battle).

Ironfoot · 01-02-2011, 05:02 PM

The Caves of the Forgotten remind me of the Halls of Mandos in a way, in that it is a type of purgatory of souls that will be rehoused at the end of the world, save it's only for the fea of men. It seems as though Illuvatar is a very clever god: he gave Ar-Pharazon exactly what he wanted, but I'm sure that it wasn't what he was expecting. The lesson learned is that true immortality only comes from the spirit, and that elvish immortality was but just a saying of indefinite life in the flesh. I think when Ar-Pharazon and his army's fea are rehoused back into their original bodies just like the elves, he'll choose to fight alongside the Valar, but that's my personal opinion.

Galadriel55 · 01-02-2011, 06:16 PM

Eru indeed gave Pharazon what he asked for. Isn't that the best way to teach people? Pharazon had lots of time to reflect on all his deeds *evil grin*.
My personal opinion about im/mortality (in general, not only in Tolkien) is that whether you believe in afterlife or in souls coming back to live more than once or not, your spirit and your memmory remains alive (not in the sense of fea, but more as in legacy/how people know you/what you've done). Pharazon's memmory that he left behind is not the kind of way he'd like to live

01-02-2011, 06:16 PM	#3
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,493	Eru indeed gave Pharazon what he asked for. Isn't that the best way to teach people? Pharazon had lots of time to reflect on all his deeds evil grin. My personal opinion about im/mortality (in general, not only in Tolkien) is that whether you believe in afterlife or in souls coming back to live more than once or not, your spirit and your memmory remains alive (not in the sense of fea, but more as in legacy/how people know you/what you've done). Pharazon's memmory that he left behind is not the kind of way he'd like to live __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

01-02-2011, 05:02 PM	#2
Ironfoot Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 21	The Caves of the Forgotten remind me of the Halls of Mandos in a way, in that it is a type of purgatory of souls that will be rehoused at the end of the world, save it's only for the fea of men. It seems as though Illuvatar is a very clever god: he gave Ar-Pharazon exactly what he wanted, but I'm sure that it wasn't what he was expecting. The lesson learned is that true immortality only comes from the spirit, and that elvish immortality was but just a saying of indefinite life in the flesh. I think when Ar-Pharazon and his army's fea are rehoused back into their original bodies just like the elves, he'll choose to fight alongside the Valar, but that's my personal opinion.